Starting debate, not stirring sh!t. So let's have a mature discussion

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Actually the briefs said just the opposite. As did Obama's own head of the CIA.

Do drugs not work?

I wouldn't go so far as 'just the opposite'. He did give them useful information of a general/historical nature at the beginning when he was being interrogated with standard techniques. They got nothing of value later when they started the other stuff.

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. It has NOTHING to do with coddling our enemies. To some, I guess it just shows weakness if we don't bust em up every chance we get. And we should - on the battlefield. Once they are in our custody, the rules change. (see Convention, Geneva)
 
I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. It has NOTHING to do with coddling our enemies. To some, I guess it just shows weakness if we don't bust em up every chance we get. And we should - on the battlefield. Once they are in our custody, the rules change. (see Convention, Geneva)

If it were just that simple. The Geneva Convention was not set up to deal with non-government terrorists.
 
I wouldn't go so far as 'just the opposite'. He did give them useful information of a general/historical nature at the beginning when he was being interrogated with standard techniques. They got nothing of value later when they started the other stuff.

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. It has NOTHING to do with coddling our enemies. To some, I guess it just shows weakness if we don't bust em up every chance we get. And we should - on the battlefield. Once they are in our custody, the rules change. (see Convention, Geneva)

New York Times
April 22, 2009

Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says
By PETER BAKER

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”

A spokeswoman for Admiral Blair said the lines were cut in the normal editing process of shortening an internal memo into a media statement emphasizing his concern that the public understand the context of the decisions made in the past and the fact that they followed legal orders.

“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."



This is my point, even Obama's national intelligence director, in a written memo, says the release of the techniques used have damaged our image more than the benefits initially reaped. Which he may have used himself and will defend absolutely.
 
Just imagine if Col Jessup was still in command of Gitmo. We'd have the truth pretty quickly if the politicains would keep their noses out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGvQtumNAY

Again, the Far Right refers to TV and Hollywood scripts for credibility.

Why is it that we accomplished so many goals during the Reagan, Kennedy and nixon era's without torture, yet we get bogged down when using torture?

Seriously, the "f-ck 'em, let's kill 'em all" mantra sounds like something Timothy McVeigh discussed before bombing our own country.

People, this is real life. It's not a poker tournament where you just say, f-ck it, it's only money. Real strategy wins, not wreckless cowboyism. Obama scares me, but he is a masterful political tactician. If the Right or Independents don't get control of the radicals, he's going to eviscerate the both in 2012. Palin is not your savior. She is the person drilling holes in your ship's hull.

You cannot have a "War on Terror." That's like a "War on Obesity" and anyone caught eating at McDonald's is an enemy combatant.
 
so we should lower ourselves to really care what a 3rd world country thinks of us? the day that they start putting their people first and supporting them the way that the US does its citizens is the day that I give an F what they they think. We were the superpower because we are, we outlasted communism in Russia, and now the current admin is apologizing for using mine and your money to help out the rest of the world that could care less if we die, until the well dries up. Well got news for you the well is running dry because Americans are sick and tired of supporting the world and have them spitting at us. I had employees the same way, know what the well dried up and I fired them, they came begging for their jobs back after trying to find and getting other jobs and the found out I wasn't the problem...


We will have to fight the Ruskies one day soon. Mark my words.
 
New York Times
April 22, 2009

Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says
By PETER BAKER

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues

...

instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."



This is my point, even Obama's national intelligence director, in a written memo, says the release of the techniques used have damaged our image more than the benefits initially reaped. Which he may have used himself and will defend absolutely.

The 'high value' part is open to interpretation. I believe he has since walked back on some of this.

A link with more links for a more better look at this.

And speaking of Iraq, here's some of the "high value" information they got from torture: there was NO link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. That was high value information they tortured to obtain that they chose to ignore, high value information that did little to save any American lives. Instead, it's taken 4274 of them.

I wonder if the new knowledge that, in those early days, the impetus for torture was not all about discovering immediate threats to the U.S. but instead an effort to provide justification for attacking a country that had not attacked us would change Adm. Blair's mind about the war criminals.
 
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If it were just that simple. The Geneva

Convention was not set up to deal with non-government terrorists.

The Geneva Convention doesn't work for outlaw governments. Who's going to enforce said conventions.

It didn't work against Hitler, Mussollini, Stalin, Amin, or countless other despotitc countrus. I don't much watch the news at all. I think I'm intelligent enough to understand that the only thing that stops a bully, is a bigger bully.

Those that don't read history, are doomed to repeat it (something I read in Hs).
 
A legit question for Jay and Jon.

Are you telling me you personally would never use any form of torture, as defined under the United Nations definitions, in any circumstances? Including your own families being involved in situations where you need info to save their lives or stop them from being tortured?

Or are you saying what we did was wrong and people should face trial by juries of their peers?
 
New York Times
April 22, 2009

Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says
By PETER BAKER

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”

A spokeswoman for Admiral Blair said the lines were cut in the normal editing process of shortening an internal memo into a media statement emphasizing his concern that the public understand the context of the decisions made in the past and the fact that they followed legal orders.

“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."



This is my point, even Obama's national intelligence director, in a written memo, says the release of the techniques used have damaged our image more than the benefits initially reaped. Which he may have used himself and will defend absolutely.
This is the exact opposite of what the interrogators have said. Talk to any of them and they'll tell you torture does not work. Rachel Maddow has had several military and civilian interrogators on her show and that's what they say.
 
A legit question for Jay and Jon.

Are you telling me you personally would never use any form of torture, as defined under the United Nations definitions, in any circumstances? Including your own families being involved in situations where you need info to save their lives or stop them from being tortured?

Or are you saying what we did was wrong and people should face trial by juries of their peers?
Yes

Yes
 
Jay, I appreciate the link, but you have to link something better than the Daily KOS. It's reputation is not much greater than the National Enquirer....

That's why I used the New York Times, not a progressive Blog with no oversight for documentation.
 
This is the exact opposite of what the interrogators have said. Talk to any of them and they'll tell you torture does not work. Rachel Maddow has had several military and civilian interrogators on her show and that's what they say.

And you have talked to how many of them to make this statement?
 

I don't watch much TV. Have too much fun on here with you guys.


In this link, I agree. I've said that. 200 + times is torture. Once is probably torture, certainly under the UN rules. However, I would use it in certain circumstances and be fully prepared to go to jail if so determined by a jury.

He says the same thing. A very effective tool. Got good information, then someone made decisions to go too far. I think I agree.
 
Jay, I appreciate the link, but you have to link something better than the Daily KOS. It's reputation is not much greater than the National Enquirer....

That's why I used the New York Times, not a progressive Blog with no oversight for documentation.
Lots of people on your side of politics say the NYT is a liberal rag and they wouldn't trust anything it says. I feel the same way about Faux News. So at the end of the day it comes down to believing what liberal or conservative media says and not the other side. That's why politics is so polarized in this country.
 
Again, the Far Right refers to TV and Hollywood scripts for credibility.

Why is it that we accomplished so many goals during the Reagan, Kennedy and nixon era's without torture, yet we get bogged down when using torture?

Seriously, the "f-ck 'em, let's kill 'em all" mantra sounds like something Timothy McVeigh discussed before bombing our own country.

People, this is real life. It's not a poker tournament where you just say, f-ck it, it's only money. Real strategy wins, not wreckless cowboyism. Obama scares me, but he is a masterful political tactician. If the Right or Independents don't get control of the radicals, he's going to eviscerate the both in 2012. Palin is not your savior. She is the person drilling holes in your ship's hull.



You cannot have a "War on Terror." That's like a "War on Obesity" and anyone caught eating at McDonald's is an enemy combatant.


If I sound far right (I don't even know, or care wtf that means}, you have torn a page from Cat's Communist Manefesto. I bet your relatives didn't spill blood to gain land to attack dictators from. Mine did. I was born in Subic Bay, sis in Honolulu, before it was a state. So bite me, I'm American and I don't give a rats ass about any other country or torture. Have you ever read history, of just spout the same mantra as Cat and Jay?

Damn right I don't care. As a matter of fact, my neighbor's son is being depliyed to Afghansitan on Monday. I was talking to Brady about it, so unless you're willing to protect THIS country against all attacks, foreign, and domestic, you are free to leave.
 
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And Rachel Maddow? A prime contributor to Air America???? Come on...
Ever watch her show on MSNBC? A lot of very knowledgeable people come on there. Rachel is smart, witty and supports the troops, being an Air Force brat and veteran herself. The fact you don't like her politics is immaterial.
 
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