Starting debate, not stirring sh!t. So let's have a mature discussion

[LaughingCat]

Gentlemen, this is not difficult to understand. This is pure science versus ideological belief. Arguments can be made, but the ideological side alwasys comes down to the same thing. . . "so what, it worked." Now that "it worked" has been debunked, you simply have a criminal act that did nothing to protect us, but plenty to stoke the flames.

So we are back to a prime question, do you support the idea that we should simply be in an indefinite war where our actions motivate the opposition, or do you want to win?

 

[Ratickle]

um, that whole scenario has been discounted as bs. try to keep up.

Play nice Jay. It has not been discounted with any authority as yet. Only hear say BS. And either way, it is as a probability, not factual.

 

[Expensive Date]

The real torture was the people on the planes on 9/11 after they heard about the first plane hitting the tower.And all the civilians firefighters and police that died that day.I can not imagine what it must have been like to be in the towers above the impact knowing there is no way out.
But for the most part torture is an ineffective interrogation tool and I feel that we somehow drop to there level if we do it.

 

[Ratickle]

Gentlemen, this is not difficult to understand. This is pure science versus ideological belief. Arguments can be made, but the ideological side alwasys comes down to the same thing. . . "so what, it worked." Now that "it worked" has been debunked, you simply have a criminal act that did nothing to protect us, but plenty to stoke the flames.

So we are back to a prime question, do you support the idea that we should simply be in an indefinite war where our actions motivate the opposition, or do you want to win?

I believe decisions need to be made. If someone is ordered to do torture they make decisions. If they decide they are to follow those orders, knowing full well they may face charges but deem to do so anyway. Well, okay. What I don't believe in is the fact our far left radicals can release secret documents to our enemies to dicredit our country. This, to me, is treason. If they wanted to end the practice, and have military trials for what happened, fine. But when they can lie to the public, release documents to our enemies, that makes them at least as bad as what happened. Because, instead of people being waterboarded, Americans will die.

Our actions cannot motivate the opposition if they are not released to the opposition. That does not mean people could not have been punished if so deserved.

It reminds me of the idiotic press in world war two who released the fact our submarines were diving deeper than the Japanese were sitting their depth charges to go off. Hundreds of American submariners died because of that. This is very similar.

And finally, if they go through all this crap, and it is proven the military and intelligence agencies fully briefed congress on these tactics as has been stated, they should be handed the exact same punihment as anyone else. Accessory to murder in this country is the similarity I would point to.

 

[LaughingCat]

What I don't believe in is the fact our far left radicals can release secret documents to our enemies to dicredit our country. This, to me, is treason. .

(I agree. but we must not by hypocrits. Outing Valerie Plame was just as much of treason. Both sides are culpable in misgivings here. but many defended by saying "if GWB approved the outing, it wasn't revealing classified informaiton or treason." So we can't have it both ways.)

Our actions cannot motivate the opposition if they are not released to the opposition. That does not mean people could not have been punished if so deserved.

It reminds me of the idiotic press in world war two who released the fact our submarines were diving deeper than the Japanese were sitting their depth charges to go off. Hundreds of American submariners died because of that. This is very similar. .

(I do not know anything about that. If true, it's another example of the media thinking of their own breaking story ambitions. . . like Geraldo drawing the frontline advancement plans on live TV. Media is no real friend to American progress. But they serve their purpose and keep our politicians form acting as obviously as Boss hogg would do.)

And finally, if they go through all this crap, and it is proven the military and intelligence agencies fully briefed congress on these tactics as has been stated, they should be handed the exact same punihment as anyone else. Accessory to murder in this country is the similarity I would point to..

i believe this was an indirect assertion that pelosi, et al should also be investigated. By all means, this is a bi-partisan problem that didn't go completely on the Bush Administration hands alone. But we have to start somewhere. The cat is out of the bag now.

Bigger question is, now that it's out, will anything be done? And what will the political fall-out be. Obama is playingt this well for his own interests

 

[catmando]

I did a report on this in college in the wake of 9/11....took some surveys and did some research. My results were interesting. Most people supported torturing as long as I didn't call it that. I also set up a scenario and polled my fellow peers. My scenario was something to the effect that a man walks into the local police station of you parents home town, says that he planted a dozen bombs set to go off in the next hour and he's not saying where. What do you do? Most people supported some form of "torture", one respondent I remember saying that you stick needles in his eyes until he speaks. On the flip side, those same respondents did not necessarily support gov't torturing....

Is there anyone here on the board that would honestly not support some type of torture/interogation to save your own family members....I would. If I had the chance, I would beat it out of him myself to save a loved one.

The Intelligence briefs on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed indicated he gave nothing of substance after any of the 183 times he was waterboarded, clear indication that that method of securing information was not successful. What should jump out at everybody is the number of times he was tortured without giving up any good information. Most will say anything to get you to stop whatever it is you're doing, so torture is not a good method of information gathering.

 

[cuda]

Maybe every politician and pundit should be waterboarded to see if it is torture. I cannot imagine a deceptive report after that session.

Every polition is not from Iraq. Maybe none of them are, but if it save one single Anerican life, I don't give a damn if they boil them in oil.

Get your heart in the country, or get yet azz out.

Mature enough for ya?

 

[cuda]

I heard that this weekend. If it took 287 sessions in one month to get information out of him, then the first 286 sessions were either 1) useless, or 2) a build-up of anxiety to where the subject decided it was time to say anything to make it stop. The likelihood of finally getting the truth out was dminished with each session.

The obvious thing is on the 287th time, it didn't fail. Does it make him less culpable if they failed on the 286th try?

 

[cuda]

Agreed. After like 3 or 4 attempts, they should move directly to the firing squad. 287 times is ridiculous. No wonder things cost so dam much in the military. Gitmo could have been closed years ago, and saved us so much money.

Fund for emperor!

 

[cuda]

I was not taking a ethical position on torture. I said waterboarding is torture and given the opportunity I could prove it.
ed

It's only because it's not happening to you, or your family. Kidnap my mom, and waterboarikng would be like walk in the park compared to what I am FULLY willing to do.

 

[cuda]

Would it have been better to have a 911 attack on LA or waterboarding?

I'll go with waterboarding

Amen.

 

[cuda]

Of course not. But soldiers are coming out revealing the truth. they were not waterboarding to thwart terror attacks, but to make a connection between Al Queda and Iraq. That's the controversy. it's not finding out what they knew. It's getting them to tell you what you want them to say. 287 tiimes will do that.

Huge difference between a Jack Bauer imminent threat interrogation and waterboarding Rush limbaugh until he admits he's gay.

Sure they have, again, who gives a rats azz?

 

[cuda]

The Intelligence briefs on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed indicated he gave nothing of substance after any of the 183 times he was waterboarded, clear indication that that method of securing information was not successful. What should jump out at everybody is the number of times he was tortured without giving up any good information. Most will say anything to get you to stop whatever it is you're doing, so torture is not a good method of information gathering.

Should have tried 184, then gone to the pistol method, and as a side note, I don't give a damn what you think.

 

[RedDog382]

I am posting this quote to display why I find it difficult to return to the Republican party. I find the current argument that "torture worked" a complete and utter hypocricy which nullifies credibility. There are so many redeeming values in the conservative movement. To piggy back on this issue on and join the public outcry is a real sign that the Republican party WILL NOT return to national prominence any time soon. Further, it opens the door for Obama to lead on issues which people would normally reject, but the only opposition is party that believes in torture. If Republicans are not going to distance themselves from this problem, the only viable party of smaller, more fiscally responsible government is the independent party (libertarians will not be taken seriously until they drop their radical side).

"The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy," - George W. Bush, urging the investigation and prosecution of prisoner abuse and torture under his command, June 26, 2003.

Why should GWB's statement not apply to members of his administration justice department who authorized torture?

Only problem with your logic is that Nancy Pelosi herself was in on the intelligence committee discussion on at least 30 different occasions and in full knowledge of this going on and now denies any knowledge of it because it is politically correct. Guess you can't be a Democrat either ...

 

[fund razor]

Ya know.... the "you ain't gonna get the truth anyway" camp makes a great case for "take no prisoners."

 

[GregP]

We will have 4 years of taking the country down in the face of the rest of the world and then it will take the adults getting back into power to fix it by being hard asses for the next 20 years.

You have got to be kidding. Nothing did more to lower the US standing in the rest of the world than the 8 years of the Bush/Chaney administration. Talk to anyone living outside the US and they all opposed the Bush admin policies and especially attitude.

-g

 

[Big Time]

So we are back to a prime question, do you support the idea that we should simply be in an indefinite war where our actions motivate the opposition, or do you want to win?

So are you saying that if we stopped all "torture" the US would no longer be in a war with Al Queda?

It may be a motivating force that Al Queda uses, but ending what some call torture would not in one bit diminish terrorist motives against the US, they would find some other reason.

 

[Big Time]

The Intelligence briefs on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed indicated he gave nothing of substance after any of the 183 times he was waterboarded, clear indication that that method of securing information was not successful. What should jump out at everybody is the number of times he was tortured without giving up any good information. Most will say anything to get you to stop whatever it is you're doing, so torture is not a good method of information gathering.

Then maybe we should use more drastic measures....

 

[Offshoredrillin]

You have got to be kidding. Nothing did more to lower the US standing in the rest of the world than the 8 years of the Bush/Chaney administration. Talk to anyone living outside the US and they all opposed the Bush admin policies and especially attitude.

-g

so we should lower ourselves to really care what a 3rd world country thinks of us? the day that they start putting their people first and supporting them the way that the US does its citizens is the day that I give an F what they they think. We were the superpower because we are, we outlasted communism in Russia, and now the current admin is apologizing for using mine and your money to help out the rest of the world that could care less if we die, until the well dries up. Well got news for you the well is running dry because Americans are sick and tired of supporting the world and have them spitting at us. I had employees the same way, know what the well dried up and I fired them, they came begging for their jobs back after trying to find and getting other jobs and the found out I wasn't the problem...

 

[Ratickle]

The Intelligence briefs on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed indicated he gave nothing of substance after any of the 183 times he was waterboarded, clear indication that that method of securing information was not successful. What should jump out at everybody is the number of times he was tortured without giving up any good information. Most will say anything to get you to stop whatever it is you're doing, so torture is not a good method of information gathering.

Actually the briefs said just the opposite. As did Obama's own head of the CIA.

Do drugs not work?