phragle
Charter Member
simple... the united states saw itself on top of the world, became complacent and retired the American work ethic.
One can not blame their adversaries for taking advantage of their weaknesses.
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- Thread starter cigdaze
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simple... the united states saw itself on top of the world, became complacent and retired the American work ethic.
One can not blame their adversaries for taking advantage of their weaknesses.
Buoy
Founding Member
Moral favoritism at its finest. Always punish those who do well...Let's allow China to pollute all they want (they're still developing).
Funny, I'm going through want ads this morning, and see a job for controlling inventory for a distribution Co., must be familiar with import/export, blah, blah, blah...
Read a little further, 90% dealing with China.
Name of the Co. is GAME - Great AMERICAN Merchandise and Events.
I chose not to apply.
http://www.game-group.com/
Don't hate the playa, hate the GAME!
But if somebody really has the balls & capability, then see if you can beat them by doing it all right here in the States.
At the end of the day, everybody wants to make $100k and pay $.05 for a stainless screw. Supposedly, "if you want quality, buy American." But there's no way to bring labor back in to the country cheaply. Sure, we can pay you $20/hr to load blanks into the screw machine; and everybody will pay $1/per for them. Where does that get us at the end of the day?
The whole reason the United States has our high standard of living is because we buy cheap chit from other places. We can't have our cake and eat it too. Building and buying all our own stuff is like economic inbreeding.
This country gets richer because of our trade. Otherwise we might as well be Amish.
But if somebody really has the balls & capability, then see if you can beat them by doing it all right here in the States.
At the end of the day, everybody wants to make $100k and pay $.05 for a stainless screw. Supposedly, "if you want quality, buy American." But there's no way to bring labor back in to the country cheaply. Sure, we can pay you $20/hr to load blanks into the screw machine; and everybody will pay $1/per for them. Where does that get us at the end of the day?
The whole reason the United States has our high standard of living is because we buy cheap chit from other places. We can't have our cake and eat it too. Building and buying all our own stuff is like economic inbreeding.
This country gets richer because of our trade. Otherwise we might as well be Amish.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I do not agree. Chinese people are becoming wealthy by taking our money, and stealing our technology, because of the moronic decisions of our politicians. Look at the trade deficits since they were granted MFN in 1979. Do we get a less costly item? Sure. Does it matter? Not when the actual unemployment/underemployment rates are around 18%.
If our government requires you to meet minimal standards of pollution control, health care for employees, and retirement plans for employees. They should require the same for companies which we import from.
"The United States is forbidden by law to grant MFN status to communist countries that do not have free-market economies. The practical effect is that imports from these countries are subject to much higher tariffs. An amendment to the Trade Act of 1974, however, created a loophole. The president may waive the MFN restriction on an annual basis if the communist country permits free emigration or if MFN status would lead to increased emigration. By law, the president must tell Congress each year of the administration's intention to renew or deny MFN status benefits to a communist country. Congress has sixty days to overturn the decision and would then need a two-thirds majority to override a presidential VETO.
China has been the main beneficiary of this loophole. Since 1979 China has been granted MFN status. After China suppressed its democracy movement and the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989, Congress opposed continuation of the country's MFN status, yet President BILL CLINTON renewed China's MFN benefits."
If our government requires you to meet minimal standards of pollution control, health care for employees, and retirement plans for employees. They should require the same for companies which we import from.
"The United States is forbidden by law to grant MFN status to communist countries that do not have free-market economies. The practical effect is that imports from these countries are subject to much higher tariffs. An amendment to the Trade Act of 1974, however, created a loophole. The president may waive the MFN restriction on an annual basis if the communist country permits free emigration or if MFN status would lead to increased emigration. By law, the president must tell Congress each year of the administration's intention to renew or deny MFN status benefits to a communist country. Congress has sixty days to overturn the decision and would then need a two-thirds majority to override a presidential VETO.
China has been the main beneficiary of this loophole. Since 1979 China has been granted MFN status. After China suppressed its democracy movement and the Tiananmen Square protest in 1989, Congress opposed continuation of the country's MFN status, yet President BILL CLINTON renewed China's MFN benefits."
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We looked at China some years back and developed a strategy to deal with them. Considering they have an opposing ideology, we could have treated them like we did the Soviets. We could have spent them into the ground militarily. But by taking that tack with the Soviets, we didn't solve the problem, we delayed it. And along the way, we played chicken with nuclear armageddon a couple of times. And after it was all done, we had blown a ton of cash on a military we no longer needed. Now today, the Soviets still have a formidable nuclear arsenal but most likely a much less firm grip upon it. And they're rapidly heading back to being an aggressive socialist state- at least they were before the economy dipped and they lost more than half their oil income revenues- their biggest export. So making China an economic trading partner and banking resource looks alot less dangerous in that context. And we're planting a few seeds of democracy as we go along. It's not perfect, but it's likely better than any of the alternative strategies.
phragle
Charter Member
therein lies your problem, if you reread what you wrote. We got to the top of the pile by designing and building stuff everyone wanted. an economy is based on what you can provide/produce. I make it, you buy it, I profit. One cannot buy if they don't sell first to aquire captial. What do we make these days? we have gone from a highly profitable production based economy to a low wage servce industry economy. China has gotten rich because they have gone from a low profit agriculteral economy to a highly profitable production based economy. China has now gotten to the point that they are outsourcing to vietnam etc to reduce costs. those costs that are being reduced will ultimatly hurt them a they did us. it helps to think small to understand. take one city block. thriving buisness on both sides of the street. then the south side starts selling everything cheaper than the north side. everybody from the north side crosses the street for better deals. soon stores beging closing on the north side because everyone is shopping on the south side. everybody on the north side lived great for a while because they had all kinds of cool stuff bought cheap on the south side. but then they went to work at thier job, the shop on the north side, and the owner said sorry..we are out of buisness. no more job..soon everybody on the north side is out of work, the battle cries go out BUY LOCAL!!shop the north side!! but nobody does because they are now poor and can only afford to shop on the south side. soon the south side is remodeled, additions are made, the north side crumbles, empty shops, crime increases as people steal what they cant buy....
Decades of proud progress built the north side into a wonderfull neighborhood, a couple years of greed have now turned it into an eternal ghetto.
or think of the world as a city, when it started downtown was the place to be, then people started moving to the suburbs and downtown went down hill a little bit. then when the suburbs got crowded, people moved further out...soon urban sprawl was everywhere, down town was a ghetto filled with homeless, wino's, hookers and crack addicts. and those first suburbs were starting to look a bit run down. Redeveloping downtown is going to take much more than a coat of paint and some windex. it will take a lot of time, hard work, money and sacrafice. is this country ready roll up their sleeves and make that sacrafice?
Buoy
Founding Member
Hmm. If you've been on the boards for awhile, one might ask "What happened to the smoke stacks"?
I recall a conversation similar sometime ago.
A couple quick thoughts...
The US "exports" a very high margin service economy. What we "produce" is intellectual property and effort..."human capital." No physical production business that I know is high margin; only niche producers with high barriers to entry have enough pricing power to achieve above "average" margins. "Producers" are usually profitable because of production volume, not margin.
Your north vs south analogy isn't complete because we don't know how/why one side decided/was able to charge less. But something to consider: if the south side flourished so much, they would be able/need to hire from the north side. Unless there was some "outside" influence, there would be a net zero change in South + North.
Lastly, I did leave out the part where the US "exports" our services and products at a higher profit than what we bring in. The problem is that we bring in so much more than we ship out. The world is becoming more competitive, thanks to our human capital.
China, India, Pakistan, Iran...they don't have to steal it because they come here freely and learn in our universities. Look up a few nuclear science programs at your favorite universities. Find student projects (typically in the graduate/doctorate sections) and I bet you can't count 6 vowels within 10 names. I was looking at a petroleum engineering project earlier this week; not one American name among the 10 students. They come here, learn what we know, and take it home. How do we place a tariff on education? And how the phuck do these **** poor people afford these degrees?
Buoy
Founding Member
I can answer that question.
The entire family pools money to send the nominated family "student" to come here and learn, with the intent that after they are educated they bring the wealth back to the "mother-country/family".
This has been going on for years and years.
Why do you think we have so few "American" Doctors?
Isn't this how the Jewish community also became considered a "Wealthy/Miserly" community many years ago?
This also goes on with the illegals from Mexico and everywhere else. They send the money they make back to the family in their home country.
I've heard news reports here in AZ that people that have immigrated (both legal and illegal) are considering moving back because of the economy, and they can't make the money they were used to making.
Same thing.
I apologize if anyone takes this as a stereotype, or the mention of certain ethnic background/religion - that is most certainly not where I'm going with this.
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