Pics of Cig Rollover in Texas

[GENERAL LEE]

It's not the speed. Stepped boats pitched the occupants and sometimes continued on operator-less and they've barrel-rolled at under 40 mph. Like the one in Europe that looped around and ended up on the rocks. Or the one on Barnegat a couple summers ago- guy was going slow and just heeled around on plane. Had parents/grandparents out for a slow cruise on the bay. Everyone got tossed.

If you're with someone that can show you the edge and what it feels like, you can learn to keep yourself out of trouble. These boats don't "just hook". You can feel the bottom and the steps releasing. You can develop a feel for what you're boat will do and then know in advance. But there's no such thing at "correct settings" That's very much affected by how you're changing the boat's weight and balance. You take on 250 gallons of fuel and 3 more passengers, you just added 2,000 lbs of weight and moved the boats center of gravity. That's going to affect how the bottom holds the water.

Now, under race conditions in sloppy water and high speed, that's a different story. You can hook a straigh-bottomed boat with enough effort and the wrong settings.

In the end, a step boat just can't be oerated like a straight-bottomed boat. And the animal in there waiting to jump out and bite you hard is the event that happens in an instant. Running in close proximity to hazards or not knowing the water- that jetski that darts between the two anchored boats you're passing, or that shoal that you didn't know about and just caught sight of... those scenarios really don't give you time to make proper adjustments and apply steering techniques. Those are jerk-the-wheel events. And the only way to make sure you don't end up in a catastrophe is to avoid the situation. Step boats aren't a free lunch. That extra speed comes with a price- sometimes a big one.

This should be the opening statement on the site when someone logs in. :sifone:

 

[BraceYourself]

It's like a comparisson between Ferrari and Lamborghini


Would you say one is more dangerous then the other. Ferrari is rear will drive and the Lamborghini is all wheel drive. Both cars can wreck but a Ferrari takes more skill then a Lamborghini.

A wreck results because of driver error... PERIOD

Not because the manufacture should of installed AWD and traction control to be as safe as the other on the road.

 

[Geronimo36]

Now you're on to something. Simulators would be awesome. I'd pay huge bucks to learn the limits of my hull in various conditions. Also would be cool to roll a million dollar cig and just hit reset to put it all back together.

As of now I will continue not to turn my cig with much speed.

No doubt, it would be really cool!

It was fresh on my mind cause one of my clients who I just did a project for does it for the military! http://www.raydon.com/commercial.html
http://www.raydon.com/about.html

 

[txriverrat2001]

So - I work on a couple of stepped hulls - been on a few rides as well - but have never been "taught" the correct way to trim drives/tabs on a stepped hul vs. a non-step'd hull. When it comes to haulin the mail I prefer a cat.

Can someone chime in and let it out to what the difference is?? In my old Executioner we always trimmed it in to make turns - is this not true with a stepped hull? And honestly I never turned the boat under full throttle or even close - I got pitched out of my old outboard drag when the steering failed - it sucked. When runnin round and round with a Mod VP hull that was different - it was a race. But just riding and doing Poker runs to me is different - with the risk - is it worth it?

Should everything be neutral?? Tabs - Drives

 

[Geronimo36]

Should everything be neutral?? Tabs - Drives

If you turn a step boat with drives in/tabs down at speed it focuses the CG/pivot point forward to the step, lifts/airates the stern and around, or over you go.

Cats can have some odd operating characteristics as well. Air is being packed under it and they don't lean into a turn. A cat has to be settled before turning hard, so don't be fooled.

But, the cat will handle the speed in a turn much better IMHO.

my $.02...

 

[Tommy Gun]

Drives and tabs should be neutral to up...the profile of a stepped hull boat means it is is much more shallow at the stern then at the midpoint; when you slow down, lower the tabs and or drives you are essentailly lifting the stern out of the water which (when basically riding on a cushion of air) will cause to boat loose its bite and pivot about the midpoint. There is of course much more to the dynamics; bottom line...take the Tres martin class where you will learn the dynamics and then be taught how to apply them.

 

[txriverrat2001]

Drives and tabs should be neutral to up...the profile of a stepped hull boat means it is is much more shallow at the stern then at the midpoint; when you slow down, lower the tabs and or drives you are essentailly lifting the stern out of the water which (when basically riding on a cushion of air) will cause to boat loose its bite and pivot about the midpoint. There is of course much more to the dynamics; bottom line...take the Tres martin class where you will learn the dynamics and then be taught how to apply them.

I agree 100% about taking Tres' class - I was just curious what was considered "normal" operation in a stepped hull as one of my guys has a 38 Top Gun that I maintain and I don't ride much with him - but if and when I do I will take notice to where everything is when he's rollin up the river and driving like a mad man.....

And he thinks I'm nuts for wearing the lanyard..... but he's never been pitched ......... yet.

 

[Big Time]

And he thinks I'm nuts for wearing the lanyard..... but he's never been pitched ......... yet.

That just makes you smarter then him...hopefully one day he doesn't have to learn the hard way.

 

[PARADOX]

So - I work on a couple of stepped hulls - been on a few rides as well - but have never been "taught" the correct way to trim drives/tabs on a stepped hul vs. a non-step'd hull. When it comes to haulin the mail I prefer a cat.

Can someone chime in and let it out to what the difference is?? In my old Executioner we always trimmed it in to make turns - is this not true with a stepped hull? And honestly I never turned the boat under full throttle or even close - I got pitched out of my old outboard drag when the steering failed - it sucked. When runnin round and round with a Mod VP hull that was different - it was a race. But just riding and doing Poker runs to me is different - with the risk - is it worth it?

Should everything be neutral?? Tabs - Drives

Don't take this a is a "course" but in a stepped hull, you need to get the stern down in turns. In short. Trim nutral or up a bit, throttle down BEFORE the turn, then have power in to the turn keeping the stearn and props "in" or down. Learn where is the "pivot" point in the hull. Somewhat like accelerating in a rear wheel drive car in a turn, keeping traction on the "drive axles"
C'mon everyone.. oppinions,, all this could only help.

 

[Chris]

It's like a comparisson between Ferrari and Lamborghini


Would you say one is more dangerous then the other. Ferrari is rear will drive and the Lamborghini is all wheel drive. Both cars can wreck but a Ferrari takes more skill then a Lamborghini.
.

A closer comparison would be that between a Corvette and an early Porsche 930 Turbo. The vette was somewhat neutral to understeering- like most sports performance cars. The Porsche was a$$ heavy and had twitchy power. It took just the wrong amount of pedal pressure in a turn to get into the boost and you were spinning like a top. When they first got here, a huge percentage of them were crashed backwards. Simply put, people got into them and assumed thy's drive like everything else they'd ever driven- which couldn't have been any further from reality.

 

[amann388]

Now you're on to something. Simulators would be awesome. I'd pay huge bucks to learn the limits of my hull in various conditions. Also would be cool to roll a million dollar cig and just hit reset to put it all back together.

As of now I will continue not to turn my cig with much speed.

Simulators would be cool but they are not near the real thing or feeling. I have been an airline pilot for 8 years and the simulators we use are state of the art but they are NOT the same as real flying. They are as close as you can get to the real thing, its a computer and it can't feel the sensations you feel in the actual cockpit. Bottom line is that you couldn't feel if the boat would be slipping out from underneathe you or have the same forces against your body. Simulators have limits. Simulators are great for instrument flying NOT by feeling or seeing. Example: If i am in a 45degree turn in the simulator the only way i would know is by looking at the instruments, there is no way to know if I went by feel.
But hey it would be cool to have a boat simultor!!

 

[Jassman]

You know this bottom is easily upset at speed if not trimmed right!!!! I have a spin and a crash to my name in this bottom, although I was racing and pushing way past that edge, the normal boater isn't aware of how the hydrodynamics work on this bottom!!!! I really think that something needs to be done as a core group before we have bigger problems down the road!!!! I understand Tres has the school but not everyone takes that course and even after that until a person has been put in different situations sometimes they dont know how to respond!!! IMHO of course

I had a very rare single step TG in 00..I sold it after the second time of spinning out at 45..and 50mph in a not so tight turning radius..dont know if its the same bottom with another step added. Thanks Jeff

 

[BraceYourself]

Simulators would be cool but they are not near the real thing or feeling. I have been an airline pilot for 8 years and the simulators we use are state of the art but they are NOT the same as real flying. They are as close as you can get to the real thing, its a computer and it can't feel the sensations you feel in the actual cockpit. Bottom line is that you couldn't feel if the boat would be slipping out from underneathe you or have the same forces against your body. Simulators have limits. Simulators are great for instrument flying NOT by feeling or seeing. Example: If i am in a 45degree turn in the simulator the only way i would know is by looking at the instruments, there is no way to know if I went by feel.
But hey it would be cool to have a boat simultor!!

That's why they design a seat/dash just like my 46, throttles/steering wheel exact, and with a wind screen. Then have a fan to simulate how air feels at different speeds. Put huge screen in front with video. Allow the seat/dash to girate and lean. Then go through different situations. Every new owner gets simulator time free. Cig owners that buy used cigs get a discount.

Maybe even have water fly in your face for stuffing or rain conditions. Audio of engines. Audio of hot chicks screamining faster faster into your ear... etc.... Get the idea.

 

[TrippM]

A closer comparison would be that between a Corvette and an early Porsche 930 Turbo. The vette was somewhat neutral to understeering- like most sports performance cars. The Porsche was a$$ heavy and had twitchy power. It took just the wrong amount of pedal pressure in a turn to get into the boost and you were spinning like a top. When they first got here, a huge percentage of them were crashed backwards. Simply put, people got into them and assumed thy's drive like everything else they'd ever driven- which couldn't have been any further from reality.

Not to put too fine a point on the Porsche issue or hijack the thread. The early 930's were as you say rear heavy and twitchy. Many spun simply because the drivers backed off the gas when they reached the limit, a normal reaction in a traditional front engined car but disaster in a rear engined machine of the day. Happily this charactaristic has been worked out of the evolutions of the 911 series.

 

[amann388]

That's why they design a seat/dash just like my 46, throttles/steering wheel exact, and with a wind screen. Then have a fan to simulate how air feels at different speeds. Put huge screen in front with video. Allow the seat/dash to girate and lean. Then go through different situations. Every new owner gets simulator time free. Cig owners that buy used cigs get a discount.

Maybe even water flys in your face for stuffing or rain conditions. Audio of engines. Audio of hot chicks screamining faster faster into your ear... etc.... Get the idea.

Yes i love the idea,,,,Hot screming girls i love:sifone:

 

[Geronimo36]

That's why they design a seat/dash just like my 46, throttles/steering wheel exact, and with a wind screen. Then have a fan to simulate how air feels at different speeds. Put huge screen in front with video. Allow the seat/dash to girate and lean. Then go through different situations. Every new owner gets simulator time free. Cig owners that buy used cigs get a discount.

Maybe even have water fly in your face for stuffing or rain conditions. Audio of engines. Audio of hot chicks screamining faster faster into your ear... etc.... Get the idea.

Now that would be cool! If anyone has been to MGM or Disney and rode on the Simpsons and Soarin rides, they know sensations can be simulated!

Happily this charactaristic has been worked out of the evolutions of the 911 series.

And the DOT, TSB, JD Power, Independent Organizations, and a host of other entities had a lot to say about it....:ack2:

Bottom line, they solved the problem. They did't tell the owners to take a driving course or "that's just the nature of the car" (insert step bottom). :lurk5:

 

[LaughingCat]

Does the TRES course also do Cats, or just Vs?

 

[Chris]

For the simulator to be truly realistic, there would have to be a gas pump that required half a grand before the sim started, you'd have to wash it for 4 hours before using, it would break 10 minutes into the session and have to be towed somewhere and you'd have to spend that second half a grand on having a $20 part installed on a Saturday.

 

[Shallow Minded]

For the simulator to be truly realistic, there would have to be a gas pump that required half a grand before the sim started, you'd have to wash it for 4 hours before using, it would break 10 minutes into the session and have to be towed somewhere and you'd have to spend that second half a grand on having a $20 part installed on a Saturday.

That's some funny chit! Unfortunately, pretty accurate, though... :sifone:

 

[gerritm]

Does the TRES course also do Cats, or just Vs?

Tres does cats and v's. I took his high performance v-class last year and it was an eye opener. I have run boats of various hull designs for 25 years. Well worth the money and time. The best part was when he showed how a stepped hull, my 42 Fountain EX, stern begins to slide just before you get out of control. Very cool feeling and just like sliding on ice. Never believed a boat would do that. One of the signs he taught us to recognize before we got into trouble. To go into a roughly 50 plus mph full turn, my boat's tabs and drives were equal at 3-4. Don't touch the throttle or tabs. He had us turning at high speeds, under complete control and recognizing what we were feeling under the hull.