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Anyone taking odds on the auto industry bail-out?
- Thread starter DollaBill
- Start date
Tommy Gun
Charter Member
Agreed.
glassdave
Founding Member / Competitor
yea . . . it could get pretty ugly. Luckily i derive probably 80% of by biz from eslewhere. I do very little local work and when i do its insurance related. I grew up in Rossford and would hate to see it go downhill its a good little town, still seems ok though.
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Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Hope that's not correct, may be though. Similar situations happened with steel in the 80's (Gary, Pittsburg, etc.), textiles in the 70's (North Carolina, Georgia, etc.), auto suppliers in the 90's, and on. Most manufacturing of major commodities has left, NAFTA and China's most favored nation trade status, (both signed by Clinton), has pretty much made it so US companies can't compete. I still believe Chapter 11 is the only way out.
fund razor
Founding Member
I am intrigued by the chapter 11 option, if it softens the landing.
I must say that I hoped to get more support for that plan of mine that would only cost 30 mil.
I must say that I hoped to get more support for that plan of mine that would only cost 30 mil.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Certainly would be a fairly good start, add a couple things. A bailout is not a long-term solution because the $ will be gone. You need a long term solution. What if the $65bill was taken from the oil co's as a temp tax, put into something like the guaranteed home loan fund, loaned to anyone with a job, and a shi-ty mileage car to trade in at a zero interest rate for 5years, and only applied to autos with at least 80% US parts and labor. Then kept going in a circle? $65 bill will buy over 1 million cars, and 1 million cars with pollution issues would be taken off the roads every 5 years.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I am intrigued by the chapter 11 option, if it softens the landing.
I must say that I hoped to get more support for that plan of mine that would only cost 30 mil.
But just like the gov., you forgot about the rest of us.
jayboat
Banned
You need to get your ass to Washington. :seeya:
BBB725
Benefactor
The problem right now is the car companies have to much capacity for the market and need to cut cost by reducing labor cost which they can't do because of the contract they signed. The UAW has to show strength by standing up to the big three and chapter 11 breaks the contract and the UAW saves face. Bailing them out only prolongs the problem. As far as stealing money from one company and giving to another that made bad choices will chase all companies off shore.
fund razor
Founding Member
But just like the gov., you forgot about the rest of us.
Yeah... but my way is cheaper for you.
The more I think about chapter 11 and the implications... the more I like it in this situation.
Don't bail em out. chapter 11 they will come out a much leaner and profitable company they can cut anything they want in chapter 11. It will happen everyone knows it has to be done. I read the other day the reason they do not want to file BR is because they are afraid no one will buy cars from a company that is BR. I think that is a load of crap.
I used to work and still have friends who do for a commercial construction that is non union the same building they can build for 10 mil costs at least 15mil from a union company and the non union company cannot even bid on it. Now don't get me wrong in construction the unions actually train a skill but they could utilize that as a school for anyone who would want to attend like a college. Thats my union rant for now.
I used to work and still have friends who do for a commercial construction that is non union the same building they can build for 10 mil costs at least 15mil from a union company and the non union company cannot even bid on it. Now don't get me wrong in construction the unions actually train a skill but they could utilize that as a school for anyone who would want to attend like a college. Thats my union rant for now.
Wrinkleface
Founding Member
GMA just did a story on the execs run'n all around in private jets at big $'s, mentioned the salaries of GM & Ford main dudes, something like 16 & 28 mil resp. In Washington ask'n 4 $$$$$$$!!! They said the gm flight from Detroit was 20K round trip & showed a Northworst flight 4 $288 rnd trip!!!!! Can we say BS BS BS BS!!!!!!!!!!????
While Jayboats idea on the surface may seem good, oil companies and NO OTHER private company that could afford to buy the big three are interested. Why? Because they are so screwed up that they can not be fixed in their current state. You will never get an oil company to bail them out because the oil company does not care about car sales. In fact older cars get lower fuel milage so why would they want to see new car sales? They are profitable and they do not want the or need the bad debt.
While it is easy to try and say that the guys on top should not be able to fly in a private plane and should not be able to have their "golden Parachutes" then how do you plan to entice a good guy in to a failing company? As for the private plane, yes it costs a lot but there are ussually a lot more then one person on that plane. For example my wife has flown on one of the the Johnson and Johnson jets and there were 15 people on board. You divide that up and it makes sence. Also if you take the income of 28 million and divide that by the hour, do you really want that guy sitting at the airport doing nothign for 2 hours prior to his departure, with multimple layovers...... It is cost effective to put those guys on those planes. Do you think that Toyota, Honda.... pay thier exect small patato's? Of course not!
SO were does the problem lie? Lies in a lot of places. The cars IMO are competitive. I actually think my new Ford hybrid is a decent car. The way they treat customers still sucks. The unions are going to kill them with the long term overhead and vehicals have gone from a truck that in 1999/2000 cost 35,000 to almost 50,000 today. Who can afford a 50,000 dollar truck? Not many. 2000 dollars for GPS? No thanks I can get one for 150 at Staples.... Lets face it Chrysler almost killed MB!
There are a lot of industries that have gone bust over the years. The economy addapts. There is no doubt that there is LONG term suffering in that area. I can drive to a ton of town in Massachusetts that have places that went down when textile industries moved out in the 50's, 60's and 70's. They are now renovating these places and turning them into artists galleries, condo's, business condo's....... They found things to do and now they are growing and thriving.
While it is easy to try and say that the guys on top should not be able to fly in a private plane and should not be able to have their "golden Parachutes" then how do you plan to entice a good guy in to a failing company? As for the private plane, yes it costs a lot but there are ussually a lot more then one person on that plane. For example my wife has flown on one of the the Johnson and Johnson jets and there were 15 people on board. You divide that up and it makes sence. Also if you take the income of 28 million and divide that by the hour, do you really want that guy sitting at the airport doing nothign for 2 hours prior to his departure, with multimple layovers...... It is cost effective to put those guys on those planes. Do you think that Toyota, Honda.... pay thier exect small patato's? Of course not!
SO were does the problem lie? Lies in a lot of places. The cars IMO are competitive. I actually think my new Ford hybrid is a decent car. The way they treat customers still sucks. The unions are going to kill them with the long term overhead and vehicals have gone from a truck that in 1999/2000 cost 35,000 to almost 50,000 today. Who can afford a 50,000 dollar truck? Not many. 2000 dollars for GPS? No thanks I can get one for 150 at Staples.... Lets face it Chrysler almost killed MB!
There are a lot of industries that have gone bust over the years. The economy addapts. There is no doubt that there is LONG term suffering in that area. I can drive to a ton of town in Massachusetts that have places that went down when textile industries moved out in the 50's, 60's and 70's. They are now renovating these places and turning them into artists galleries, condo's, business condo's....... They found things to do and now they are growing and thriving.
That is because it is not going to effect you!!! :boxing_smiley::26:
MarylandMark
Charter Member
I'm torn-
I've been union labor for 15+ years. I signed on to this company because of the free medical, dental, vision, pension, pay, etc. When I retire I also expect free medical, dental, vision, pension. If they didn't offer that I would have gone to work some place else. I'm anti-union btw.
Union or no union- what is wrong with wanting a living wage? A wage you can actually live on- not one of the working poor. UAW getting $30 an hour is not the problem.
Start at the top:
Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million.
Fritz Henderson, who was promoted to president and chief operating officer in March, received compensation of about $9.3 million in 2007, up from about $5.1 million in 2006.
Vice Chairman Bob Lutz's compensation rose to about $9 million in 2007, from about $5.1 million in 2006.
Ford Motor Co Chief Executive Alan Mulally had earned more than $22 million in 2007
Chrysler's Nardelli is only making $1 a year after he rolled out of Home Depot making $347M in 2007 in golden parachute and severance packages. They are called golden because the rest of us are getting pissed on.
ps- Honda has never had an unprofitable year. It has never had to lay off employees. Honda doesn't disclose executive pay in detail, but the sum of salaries and bonuses that Fukui shares with 36 board members, $13 million.
I've been union labor for 15+ years. I signed on to this company because of the free medical, dental, vision, pension, pay, etc. When I retire I also expect free medical, dental, vision, pension. If they didn't offer that I would have gone to work some place else. I'm anti-union btw.
Union or no union- what is wrong with wanting a living wage? A wage you can actually live on- not one of the working poor. UAW getting $30 an hour is not the problem.
Start at the top:
Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million.
Fritz Henderson, who was promoted to president and chief operating officer in March, received compensation of about $9.3 million in 2007, up from about $5.1 million in 2006.
Vice Chairman Bob Lutz's compensation rose to about $9 million in 2007, from about $5.1 million in 2006.
Ford Motor Co Chief Executive Alan Mulally had earned more than $22 million in 2007
Chrysler's Nardelli is only making $1 a year after he rolled out of Home Depot making $347M in 2007 in golden parachute and severance packages. They are called golden because the rest of us are getting pissed on.
ps- Honda has never had an unprofitable year. It has never had to lay off employees. Honda doesn't disclose executive pay in detail, but the sum of salaries and bonuses that Fukui shares with 36 board members, $13 million.
MarylandMark
Charter Member
I'd do it for 1/2... :sifone:
I agree- why go work at place Y when you can make X at place Z. I don't blame them for getting all they can; just think the entire CEO compensation world is way out of wack.
CEO pay vs average employee pay ratio:
USA 411 times
Mexican 61 times
Brazilan 60 times
China 36 times
Britan 32
Canada 23
France 23
South Korea 23
Germany 20
Japan 11
CEO pay to employee pay in America 37 times more than it is in Japan
CEO compensation of American oil companies average $33 million
CEO of BP (British Petroleum) 2nd biggest oil company in the world) made $5.6 million
CEO of Royal Dutch Shell (3rd biggest), made $4.1 million
All I'm saying is the little guy (worker) is not the only one mooching off the system. UAW forcing GM to have 3K employee's sit in an office building because there is no work is BS without a doubt but all them together don't make as much as the CEO does before thier first chit of the day which I think is just as wrong.
I agree- why go work at place Y when you can make X at place Z. I don't blame them for getting all they can; just think the entire CEO compensation world is way out of wack.
CEO pay vs average employee pay ratio:
USA 411 times
Mexican 61 times
Brazilan 60 times
China 36 times
Britan 32
Canada 23
France 23
South Korea 23
Germany 20
Japan 11
CEO pay to employee pay in America 37 times more than it is in Japan
CEO compensation of American oil companies average $33 million
CEO of BP (British Petroleum) 2nd biggest oil company in the world) made $5.6 million
CEO of Royal Dutch Shell (3rd biggest), made $4.1 million
All I'm saying is the little guy (worker) is not the only one mooching off the system. UAW forcing GM to have 3K employee's sit in an office building because there is no work is BS without a doubt but all them together don't make as much as the CEO does before thier first chit of the day which I think is just as wrong.
