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Anyone taking odds on the auto industry bail-out?

Dollabill said:
Here's how I see it Fund (then off for sushi and a martini so I'm done for the evening :sifone:)

I disagree with the thought that the people being hurt had nothing to with and/or aren't responsible for their own fate. Did they ever sit back and say "what if"? I don't think so. Should they have? He!! yes. Period.

If you were/are a union worker and had the best blue color job on the planet and DECIDED to ride out that path and be there 30 years and have your healthcare/pension/etc YOU MADE A DECISION. Just like the rest of us. If you never thought about it your just not that smart. Darwinism cleans up once again.

You make your bed, you lie in it. PERIOD. I've made some dumb mistakes and paid dearly. But in the end they were MY decisions. Man up, accept responsibilty for ones life and move on the next chapter.

I know you Fund and I know that you don't expect anything from anyone so I don't why you think nobody should get hurt in this. TTYT bro.

:leaving:
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agreed 100% . . . . so many people want to blame their fate on someone else. I'm not saying people done get caught in the crossfire but most can see hand writing on the the wall long before it happens.
 
glassdave said:
agreed 100% . . . . so many people want to blame their fate on someone else. .
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I know. It drives me nuts. Maybe my worst pet peeve.

glassdave said:
I'm not saying people done get caught in the crossfire but most can see hand writing on the the wall long before it happens.
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From what I can tell.... you and I are both in the path of the regional tsunami from a big three collapse. I know that you are fairly mobile... but this region, including the neighborhoods of our childhood homes... will go under and we will dam near need to flee. Think mad max. Chain link from Bowling Green to Waterford.
 
I wish it was a case of simply forcing lazy autoworkers to get retrained.

But anyway... I respect the folks who say screw em. That's usually how I respond to these things. I get your point. I live it in my life.
 
jayboat said:
If a major part of our manufacturing sector is allowed to fail we will go directly into a depression.

I'm in favor of some sort of assitance even if it's just Chapter 11- prove that they can re-invent themselves, re-structure, jettison current mgmt and attitude, and move forward with some cars that make sense.

I don't have much faith in our politicians right now, tho... their handling of the rescue/bailout so far has been rather unimpressive. I don't think they have a clue as to how to deal with this.
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fund razor said:
Uh oh. I agree with Jay.
Scratch another sign off the apocalypse gant chart.
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Pretty ominous sign, I'm heading straight out to stock up on food, water, and bullets.:seeya:

I'm not in favor currently, unless they file Chapter 11. There is no way they can compete under the current structuring of the contracts with the workers. GM has 160,000 workers and almost a million retires collecting on average, $40,000 pension and full health benefits. Can't compete.

However, if they file, health benefits disappear and about 1/2 of the pension expense disappears. Unfortunately, the taxpayers have to pick it up, us!!!.

One thing to remember, no matter what, the same amount of cars will need to be made and sold, minus 10% to 15% for the economic downturn it will cause. Not all agree, but if we bail them out, I am almost positive it is just a postponement of the inevitable. It will happen in the near future, period.
 
Management is 100% at fault on this one. They are the ones leading the company are are suppose to be looking out for the share holders. Yes the UAW ask for bigger and better contracts but to agree to job banks, how stupid can the leaders of the big 3 be. There are two ways to reduce cost at the auto plants, labor and material. UAW has stated no more concessions so that leaves material or the suppliers, who are going bankrupt now. Big mess that bankruptcy would help with legacy costs. They are uncompetitive now so giving them money without any changes and expecting a different out come is foolish.
 
BBB725 said:
Management is 100% at fault on this one. They are the ones leading the company are are suppose to be looking out for the share holders. Yes the UAW ask for bigger and better contracts but to agree to job banks, how stupid can the leaders of the big 3 be. There are two ways to reduce cost at the auto plants, labor and material. UAW has stated no more concessions so that leaves material or the suppliers, who are going bankrupt now. Big mess that bankruptcy would help with legacy costs. They are uncompetitive now so giving them money without any changes and expecting a different out come is foolish.
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Yep, but giving them money and letting our politicians manage them is even worse.
 
No bailout without MAJOR concessions from UAW. I cannot accept that my hard earned money may be going to pay for some early UAW retirees health care to bridge the gap until they are medicare eligible. Ridiculous. I saw that the employee benefit cost in an american vehicle is $1,200+/- and in a Toyota $300 +/-. This is part of the reason they cannot compete.
 
Looking back at one of MMs posts, maybe they should look at the Toyota or Honda business model. That seems to be working here. Not to start anything, but, Fountain has lost most of it's operating officers recently, trimming the fat, something the big 3 should consider doing?
 
labor tried to call the bluff on Eastern Airlines..

and we all remember where that arrogant move got them... :ack2:
 
no bailout unless the legacy costs go away or at least substantial consessions from UAW. There's no way they can make it. I hate to see people lose their benefit but what makes them different that the rest of the county that has lost 40+% of their retirement in the last year? Or the Merril, WaMU or any of the thousands of workers that have lost jobs?

Citigroup cutting 53,000 workers, how many can GM let go with no additional ongoing costs?

IMHO under the current system its good money after bad. They think car sales will rebound in 2010...not likely.
 
Von Bongo said:
no bailout unless the legacy costs go away or at least substantial consessions from UAW. There's no way they can make it. I hate to see people lose their benefit but what makes them different that the rest of the county that has lost 40+% of their retirement in the last year? Or the Merril, WaMU or any of the thousands of workers that have lost jobs?

Citigroup cutting 53,000 workers, how many can GM let go with no additional ongoing costs?

IMHO under the current system its good money after bad. They think car sales will rebound in 2010...not likely.
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I agree, i dont think the people are overpaid, I think it is gross mismanagement and not having standards for employees, they get away with being drunk on the job, not showing up and are rewarded for shoddy workmanship,reminds me of the movie "gung ho"... I'm sure most appreciate their job, but also damn sure think they are owed. I would look for congressional action to stop more of the execs from cleaning up if the company goes under, I would think wrongful doing legislation is right around the corner, ala Enron.
 
jayboat said:
It's too smart to ever happen...
but I think the oil companies should bail em out. :dupe:
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once on a while you come up with a humdinger good one... :) without cars/trucks oil company's have no reason to exist, and they have bookoo bucks right now...
 
20 years in the Auto industry and I'm not sure if anything would help .... IMHO I think the big 3 failing will have a major impact on the overall economy. So let's say GM goes under ... someone has to maintain and keep 'em runnin ... so the aftermarket gets fat?? I'm no economist by far ... just a car guy .... mainly fixed ops ... but just because a mfg craters ... everyone just quits driving them? Hell there are still Deloreans (sp?) here in Houston - not sure how his sales are .. but he's selling and servicing them.

I spent 10 years working out of Michigan for FoMoCo via a consulting firm and saw more waste in the programs and bs they shoved on the dealers it amazed me ..... but if you were a dealer, you really had no choice.

IMHO I think the fat cats upstairs at the Big 3 need to put people in their place. Don't like it? hit the door .. and tell your union guy to ki$$ my a$$.....
 
At the end of the day the consumer dictates what brands stay in business.
If you build consumer preference, people will buy...
If you cannot get your head out of your a$$ to create consumer preference, no bailout will help you.
The Chevy "Volt" is 2 years too late. Could you imagine GM sales 3-4 months ago if a hybrid vehicle would have been on the show-room floor?
 
BUIZILLA said:
once on a while you come up with a humdinger good one... :) without cars/trucks oil company's have no reason to exist, and they have bookoo bucks right now...
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You forgot about boats. Did you think we get good mileage? If they bailout autos, they should bail out boats, motor homes, airlines, andon, and on, and on...........
 
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