Ford Sweeps Car and Truck of the Year

[RLJ676]

Yeah I thinks its great that the company is going down the tubes and they still had a job bank...go UAW! Guess they really needed those guys in reserve in case someone happened to place a random order for a million cars.

It was a contract. What do you want? It was a costly deal for the company, but the UAW IS NOT what broke GM, so why do you keep going on about it? I don't like the UAW/unions, but I know that they were not the problem that caused bankruptcy.

Correct, what's the latest on retiree health care obligations?

Who's funding it now? Union or Company?

And I'm not being a wise guy, Last I heard GM was going to contribute 35 billion to the fund to relive itself of further obligation.

Not sure the dollar amounts, but basically all of those liabilities were turned to equity ownership. The UAW will only get their fund money now if GM does well and the IPO makes them a lot of money.

Back to the thread though......anyone driven a Fusion hybrid?:USA: (I really wasn't trying to drive this into a GM discussion, was just responding to comments on it)

 

[Tommy Gun]

The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.

It was a contract. What do you want? It was a costly deal for the company, but the UAW IS NOT what broke GM, so why do you keep going on about it? I don't like the UAW/unions, but I know that they were not the problem that caused bankruptcy.

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

 

[clayinaustin]

Getting this thread back on track... So Ford wins the latest "car of the year". Big deal.

GM won big last year. http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/2008.html

Ford only had one vehicle (Edge) the year before that http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/2007.html

It sounds to me like it was Ford's "turn" to win.

 

[sledge]

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

I think people need to consider whether they're disappointed with General Motors the car company, versus the United Auto Workers union. Sure people can go on about GM execs being complacent in bargaining with UAW and not helping out the co in the long term. But I think people need to seperate the union from the company to a certain extent.

Anybody would be hard pressed to defend the union for its responsibility in contributing to the problems. The union's greed is second only to bankers' when it comes to hurting companies. But when you talk about "the auto industry" and "the big three" you're talking about a heck of a lot more than just the UAW.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the hypocrisy I read from some of you guys sometimes. In one thread you b!tch about Wall Street making tons of money. In the next you cry out for bondholders that got crushed; if they would've taken equity for their debt they wouldn't have lost as much, if anything. In one thread you b!tch about "Us-the taxpayer" bailing out what should be our pride and joy; in another you complain that all of our manufacturing is being moved offshore (how 'bout those Chinese Hummers?)

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

 

[Birdog]

GM will fail again for the same reason they failed before..They stil dont understand they are building crappy cars. Crap fit and finish, crap paint, crap interiors...

My ford TRUCK is twice as well built as my Pontiac (I wont even get into my Jeep LOL}

If thry were selling cars, nobody would even be talking about the unions, This is GMs excuse

 

[DollaBill]

I'm looking at cars right now. If I get another SUV it will be another Expedition. If I get a car I will look at the Lincoln MKZ and a couple imports. GM isn't even on my radar.

 

[MarylandMark]

I'm not looking so haven't done a comparison, but I like the looks of the Caddys better than the Lincolns

 

[DollaBill]

I'm not looking so haven't done a comparison, but I like the looks of the Caddys better than the Lincolns

Actually, you're right about that. The caddys are very nice. But, I still won't buy one. Ford is a company that deserves my business IF I buy American.

 

[BBB725]

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

Management, for not standing up for the share holders

The one thing your leaving out of this equation is it takes two side to agree in collective bargaining. The UAW will ask for as much as they can get but it is up to the boys upstairs to say yes or no. Look at Caterpillar they said no and now have dumped the life time health care back on the union, have realistic rules in place along with lower starting wages.

 

[phragle]

From an executive standpoint it is more difficult, but not impossible. If you're up on GM news, which I doubt most are, we have picked up some new big time execs. We got the CFO from Microsoft just a few weeks ago, .

Microsloth?? does this mean that all new GM's will be insanely bloated, overpriced and crash on their own for no appearant reason??

 

[Tommy Gun]

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

Well I for one want the government out of private business, smaller gov't, less entitlement programs and lower taxes. Regarding the banks, they had to step in because they already control/regulate the banks thru the Federal Reserve Bank and the FDIC. Although I use the term regulate loosely as it applies to the investment banks that caused most of this mess. A run on the banks would have been a real disaster. IMHO GM decalring bankruptcy without gov't intervention not so much. I purchased 8 GM cars/trucks in a row and was a loyal customer. Now German and most recernt purchase a Ford truck.

BTW do you remember when the Democrats were calling for a windfall tax on the record big oil profits???? How come no one is calling for a windfall tax on the record Federal reserve profits, which are more than big oil made????????

I will give the Dems credit for their managing of the tarp thus far. It is one thing they have mostly done right. Problem is they want to take the repaid funds and distribute them thru more entitlement programs under the guise of more stimulus....we'll never get it back.

 

[phragle]

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Guess what man, the world aint fair. When americans are car shopping, they dont care if some japanese sumo wrestler beat you up and took your lunch money. You can plead your case with them, maybe they will smile and pat you on the head, but they are still just going to turn around and buy what ever the hell they want. Everybody loves the girls scouts but how many boxes of thin mints would you be buying if they tasted like styrofoam? Last time you bought girl scout cookies, were you really concerned about whether they were baked and boxed in the US??

Reality man...it sux, but you live in it.

 

[DollaBill]

"Reality man...it sux, but you live in it."

Well there's my new sig line LOL

 

[sledge]

How come no one is calling for a windfall tax on the record Federal reserve profits, which are more than big oil made???????

Umm...did you realize that first of all, the Federal Reserve is the only quasi-government agency that has always been profitable? And more importantly, all of the FRB profits already go to the US Treasury?

:cheers2:

Well I for one want the government out of private business, smaller gov't, less entitlement programs and lower taxes.

I'm with you & everyone else on this. But I think what happened the last couple years was extraordinary and required an extraordinary response. The key is that the gov't doesn't keep finding ways to permanently have their grimy hands in everything.

 

[phragle]

I'm with you & everyone else on this. But I think what happened the last couple years was extraordinary and required an extraordinary response. The key is that the gov't doesn't keep finding ways to permanently have their grimy hands in everything.

Lets look at it this way... you wanted coffee this morning...it was incredibly bitter.. you poured a ton of sugar into it to sweeten it up. That made it drinkable today, it will work tomorrow, but sooner or later your going to run out of sugar. Then the coffee will suck. Had you just kicked Juan Valdez's azz and told him to grow decent coffee, or bought coffee from the foldgers guy.. you would still have sugar in to bowl and good coffee in your cup. The industry needs desperatly to be remodeled. The govt. is throwing water ballons full of Big Lots chinese house paint at i and saying "look how shiny it is" as the foundation crumbles and the termites feast.

 

[BBB725]

Regarding the banks, they had to step in because they already control/regulate the banks thru the Federal Reserve Bank and the FDIC.

Not quite, the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank not owned by the government.

 

[RLJ676]

I think people need to consider whether they're disappointed with General Motors the car company, versus the United Auto Workers union. Sure people can go on about GM execs being complacent in bargaining with UAW and not helping out the co in the long term. But I think people need to seperate the union from the company to a certain extent.

Anybody would be hard pressed to defend the union for its responsibility in contributing to the problems. The union's greed is second only to bankers' when it comes to hurting companies. But when you talk about "the auto industry" and "the big three" you're talking about a heck of a lot more than just the UAW.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the hypocrisy I read from some of you guys sometimes. In one thread you b!tch about Wall Street making tons of money. In the next you cry out for bondholders that got crushed; if they would've taken equity for their debt they wouldn't have lost as much, if anything. In one thread you b!tch about "Us-the taxpayer" bailing out what should be our pride and joy; in another you complain that all of our manufacturing is being moved offshore (how 'bout those Chinese Hummers?)

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

Well said. With this crowd greed is good, if you are mgmt.... the working guys....F U you greedy UAW scum, huh?

UAW's benefits were over the top, but the size of the retirees is the killer! Even with avg benefits it would have been a huge legacy cost nobody competing here now does.

40 years ago the Big 3 had 70% of the market and basically no competition. Therefore you need a big workforce. The US lets any and everyone come sell here, so now you have hundreds of name plates competing against you with different operating structures and costs and you still hold 45% of the market, but it is still not enough to support current labor and retirees, so now you break your contracts to screw the retirees? Or do you guys suppose GM should have used their time machine?

I won't even get into what they should have done to prepare for the market going from 17 mil vehicles a year to 10.... which "might" hurt revenue. Nobody had that in their plans.

 

[RLJ676]

Guess what man, the world aint fair. When americans are car shopping, they dont care if some japanese sumo wrestler beat you up and took your lunch money. You can plead your case with them, maybe they will smile and pat you on the head, but they are still just going to turn around and buy what ever the hell they want. Everybody loves the girls scouts but how many boxes of thin mints would you be buying if they tasted like styrofoam? Last time you bought girl scout cookies, were you really concerned about whether they were baked and boxed in the US??

Reality man...it sux, but you live in it.

Sure, don't worry about the US trade deficit and lack of power that goes with being in debt to everyone.......world's not fair but I prefer being a super power rather than China's *****. People may not consider this stuff, but people are stupid, that's the world we live in.

Other countries go out of their way to maintain, better yet gain economic power while attitudes like yours here give ours away.

Also, globalization is just the world going to equilibrium. As a top standard of living country, that means we HAVE TO go down as others come up. The jobs (industry) will continue to move to lower cost options (given free trade/globalization) until none are left. Basically we'll all be low cost producers.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

I'm looking at cars right now. If I get another SUV it will be another Expedition. If I get a car I will look at the Lincoln MKZ and a couple imports. GM isn't even on my radar.

MKZ is a POS.....just won one of the worst cars built awards.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

Not quite, the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank not owned by the government.

yes and no.....

In particular, the United States Government does not own shares in the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks but does take all of its profits after salaries are paid to employees, dividends are paid to member banks, and surplus is put in a capital account. The government also exercises some control by appointing its highest level employees and setting their salaries.

According to the Federal Reserve, there are presently five different parts of the Federal Reserve System:[8]

The presidentially appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, a governmental agency in Washington, D.C.
The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), which oversees Open Market Operations, the principal tool of national monetary policy.
Twelve regional privately-owned Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, which divide the nation into 12 districts, acting as fiscal agents for the U.S. Treasury, each with its own nine-member board of directors.
Numerous other private U.S. member banks, which subscribe to required amounts of non-transferable stock in their regional Federal Reserve Banks.