True. In that era, I loved the factory classes. I remember watching those F-1 and F-2 boats and thinking, "hey, this is within reach if I really wanted to try it". That along with, "those crazy SOB's have brass ones", knowing that at any moment they could be tossed out of the boat.
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Boats.com story on "Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?"
- Thread starter BlackJack58
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DaveP
Charter Member
A successful era is not judged by boat count alone......Class 1 overseas has only a dozen boats but the whole race weekend is an amazing experience.
Matt Trulio
Contributor
Mike,
As for where I work affecting "what I hear or what I want to hear," that's a double-edged sword. I've heard lots of things, from who led what to who stiffed who, over the years.
I act on none of it. More important, I write about none of it. Because I'm not interested in what I've heard. I'm interested in what I know and can substantiate. Being on "the inside," as indeed you were, doesn't make you unbiased or objective. It just makes you inside, most likely with an interest to protect. Nothing more.
I treated you fairly, reported what I could substantiate and left the rest to the rumor mill. It doesn't make me a hero, just ethical and I resent any implication, because of "where I work" that I was ever anything but. As you probably imagine, there were a whole bunch of people who were less than pleased with my profile of you and subsequent reporting of the rise and fall of the LLC. What you probably can't imagine? None of them ever worked with me.
You've dropped a lot of names of those "responsible" for the demise of the LLC. (For the record, I also think that splinter groups are doomed to fail because they invariably become what they once despised.) But I would think you would have to acknowledge at least some responsibility for alienating those people.
As for where I work affecting "what I hear or what I want to hear," that's a double-edged sword. I've heard lots of things, from who led what to who stiffed who, over the years.
I act on none of it. More important, I write about none of it. Because I'm not interested in what I've heard. I'm interested in what I know and can substantiate. Being on "the inside," as indeed you were, doesn't make you unbiased or objective. It just makes you inside, most likely with an interest to protect. Nothing more.
I treated you fairly, reported what I could substantiate and left the rest to the rumor mill. It doesn't make me a hero, just ethical and I resent any implication, because of "where I work" that I was ever anything but. As you probably imagine, there were a whole bunch of people who were less than pleased with my profile of you and subsequent reporting of the rise and fall of the LLC. What you probably can't imagine? None of them ever worked with me.
You've dropped a lot of names of those "responsible" for the demise of the LLC. (For the record, I also think that splinter groups are doomed to fail because they invariably become what they once despised.) But I would think you would have to acknowledge at least some responsibility for alienating those people.
NNRT
Icon/Charter Member
An Idea that the Europeans did years ago, was to Charge each race team a fee - (something like $50,000.00) - that was to Guarantee they would show up for each and every race, at least to run over the start line - I think (not sure) it was returned at the end of the season. They also charged a fee - to each race team in advance - for TV - that way they knew the funds would be available for producing each event - In 1993 - I filmed for them, in their format, the Video had multiple cameras - at least 6 or more. Finished product was shown on RAI - the national TV of Italy. I would shoot the events - flying from London where my helicopter was based to each event - some as far away as Malta, which would require two days to get there, and two days to fly back to London - all for just about 90 minutes of filming. An unfortunate thing, I never got to see my own work, as soon as the event was over, I would hand over the Tape, pack up and leave to fly home. The Local Italian teams would do the post event coverage.
I have to thank People like Walter Ragazzi who belived in my work, and who won in Dubai - the grand title in 1992 which we filmed as well. If anyone knows how to locate Walter, please let me know.
Offshore Racing can be done and done well - in those days - you would have a Minimum of 24 OPEN boats - and the racing was as T2X would say - "bow handle to bow handle" - racers would group in groups of 5 or so - and the excitment was unbelievable - not like here in this country where its like a continous string of pearls running in a circle and no one knows what is happening.
Oh well - just a few ideas from a retired old videographer ! now back to your regular programing !
Phil
nnrt.films@verizon.net
I have to thank People like Walter Ragazzi who belived in my work, and who won in Dubai - the grand title in 1992 which we filmed as well. If anyone knows how to locate Walter, please let me know.
Offshore Racing can be done and done well - in those days - you would have a Minimum of 24 OPEN boats - and the racing was as T2X would say - "bow handle to bow handle" - racers would group in groups of 5 or so - and the excitment was unbelievable - not like here in this country where its like a continous string of pearls running in a circle and no one knows what is happening.
Oh well - just a few ideas from a retired old videographer ! now back to your regular programing !
Phil
nnrt.films@verizon.net
NNRT
Icon/Charter Member
Dave -
You are right - the money people were always there - think back to the 70s - just a group of guys -(sans uniforms and jump suits) - who never worried about paying bills - they ran for the fun of it - not for money - not for anything but fun - Doc Magoon, Bill Wishnick, Eddie LeCareau, Balesteri, and many more that seem to have skipped my mind - in those days - it was done for fun - and who cared about TV or promotion ! Maybe it should get back to that, and stop the wana bees ! It was a WALLET check then - ! you won if you paid the most and you bought the best talent - wont name names here, but they know who they are !
Phil
GENERAL LEE
Founding Member - E Dock
Oh yeah, that has always been something I'd like to do. It's going to have to get a little more structured before I would want to jump in with both feet and start a team of my own, but driving/throttling for another team right now is something I'd definitely do. :driving:
While I'd probably race ANY of the leagues that offered me a seat, racing Cat Lite or "X-Cat" would be the most fun I think. :coolgleamA:
smokeybandit
New member
After reading the whole thread, you just summed up the whole thing perfectly. We raced because we loved it. And we raced to win. Thank god my father had a big checkbook back then. It was never about who was watching or how many people would see us on TV. Who gives a crap what you look like in the pits. D'Elia never had a gorgeous rig but he would go out and win. Copeland had the nicest rig, but Morales, whose boat was plain white, would go out there and kick Al's butt. And that really ****ed Al off. Offshore racing is no longer about competition. It's about the show.
By the way, I thought Matt's article was spot on.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Now you're talking......:26: :03: :26:
It's a blast, and I'm with you. There are a lot of teams on the sidelines right now for mostly the same reasons. Hopefully we're all learning something from this dialogue with those who have been there, done that from every perspective.
Myself as well. I have had a vision/mission ever since the 80's.
I only hope when and if I am able to, I can shake hands with you guys, be apart of something great (not just ok) pat you on the back, and look forward to feeling like we acomplished the un-acomplishable.
This sport is way to impressive to give up on. Thank you guys for not giving up.
Is it possible that a new organization (completely new) needs to be formed with a new name due to much bad blood and "poor tastes in the mouth" from all prior and exsisting orgs.?
I am assuming that could be a message here?
I also believe in term "going back to basics" I have heard alot of talk and writing about Offshore trying to "be like Nascar" (wasnt going to even bring that word up) thats like comparing apples and oranges. (apples and bananas really)
maybe offshore racing should try to be like offshore racing. there maybe a few lessons to be had from other race series such as FIA. maybe some kind of "concorde" agreement between teams as has been mentioned here. NO organization is perfect, its realizing it and moving forward that important. I am seeing that here.
I only hope when and if I am able to, I can shake hands with you guys, be apart of something great (not just ok) pat you on the back, and look forward to feeling like we acomplished the un-acomplishable.
This sport is way to impressive to give up on. Thank you guys for not giving up.
Is it possible that a new organization (completely new) needs to be formed with a new name due to much bad blood and "poor tastes in the mouth" from all prior and exsisting orgs.?
I am assuming that could be a message here?
I also believe in term "going back to basics" I have heard alot of talk and writing about Offshore trying to "be like Nascar" (wasnt going to even bring that word up) thats like comparing apples and oranges. (apples and bananas really)
maybe offshore racing should try to be like offshore racing. there maybe a few lessons to be had from other race series such as FIA. maybe some kind of "concorde" agreement between teams as has been mentioned here. NO organization is perfect, its realizing it and moving forward that important. I am seeing that here.
Dave,
You are so right. My family raced from 1973-1978 and the principal reason my father pulled out was because it really was not a place for families to be anymore. It got really scary and carried on through the 1980's. In my second year of law school at Miami in 1987 I went to KW to visit with some folks who used to be part of my dad's open boat crew. I saw some things on the dock and dry pits that day that really scared the hell out of me. I did not go to another race until 1996
I would like to think those days are long gone.............
Matt Trulio
Contributor
Guys,
I said this earlier but I need to say it again: There were many things APBA Offshore LLC did that were very, very right. The 2000 Worlds were the best, far and away, that I ever attended. Great boats, great racing, tons of sponsors, great energy. The TV package was good ... and getting better. Sure, the Factory classes were born under Gene Whipp, but the LLC did a great job maintaining their momentum. The Super Cat and Super Cat Light classes were fantastic.
During the 2000 Worlds on Saturday night (if memory serves), there was a concert by some new male teen sensation we'd probably all hate, but our adolescent daughters would love. The LLC was wisely taking a page from the UIM Class 1 book in making the worlds "bigger" than an offshore race. That was smart as hell.
For better or worse, whatever you or I think, the LLC approached the sport as a business. And here is the one thing I think everyone who has posted on this thread will agree on: If offshore racing is to have a resurgence and succeed, there's no other way to approach it.
Last, I received a couple of emails from a few of you on here urging me to keep things polite and civil. If I came across in my last post as anything less than that, all apologies.
I said this earlier but I need to say it again: There were many things APBA Offshore LLC did that were very, very right. The 2000 Worlds were the best, far and away, that I ever attended. Great boats, great racing, tons of sponsors, great energy. The TV package was good ... and getting better. Sure, the Factory classes were born under Gene Whipp, but the LLC did a great job maintaining their momentum. The Super Cat and Super Cat Light classes were fantastic.
During the 2000 Worlds on Saturday night (if memory serves), there was a concert by some new male teen sensation we'd probably all hate, but our adolescent daughters would love. The LLC was wisely taking a page from the UIM Class 1 book in making the worlds "bigger" than an offshore race. That was smart as hell.
For better or worse, whatever you or I think, the LLC approached the sport as a business. And here is the one thing I think everyone who has posted on this thread will agree on: If offshore racing is to have a resurgence and succeed, there's no other way to approach it.
Last, I received a couple of emails from a few of you on here urging me to keep things polite and civil. If I came across in my last post as anything less than that, all apologies.
Matt,
You are being too sensitive, probably because the written word is much easier to misconstrue than a face to face discussion so let me clear some things up so that this thread can stay on track.
1. I have never claimed to be objective or unbiased in my commentary about the demise of offshore racing and the LLC. Nevertheless, the things I said about Teague, Whittier, Chastelet, Mauf, et al. and what they did are irrefutable facts. At least in so far as Mauf signed a document and then betrayed everyone else who signed it by going against it without notice or explanation. The others were OSS founders.
2. It goes without saying that the people who I blame for sinking the sport would say bad things about me. One of the major issues I had with many of those people, however, is they never had the courage to speak their minds to my face or publicly. Much of what they said and did was behind the scenes where they could not be challenged. That certainly was not a complaint anyone had against me. To the contrary, much of their beef was that I was too in your face and if I called you out in private I did it in public as well. In fact I did that to many people who did not join the boycott.
3. I never questioned your objectivity in writing about the sport, then or now, and never would. You are a gentleman journalist and always treated me fairly. I am also not surprised you took heat for reporting the facts fairly. Afterall, some of that reporting painted me in a decent light which did not square with the agenda of those who were giving you grief, again, behind the scenes. I got hammered plenty by you, Eric, and Terry over the years but I never complained because unlike the others who were screaming in your ears I respected that you all were reporting the facts as you gleaned them. In other words, you were doing your jobs.
4. As for taking responsibility for alienating the named boycotters who are largely responsible for the sport's current state, let me just say this: NEVER. The whole "alienation", "hurt feelings", deal is nothing more than these weasels' excuse for their own behavior. Many of them want to justify their actions and the severe damage they caused to the sport and to many of those who followed them over the cliff so they blame me. "He treated us sooooooo bad we had no other choice. He made us do it. Booo Hoooo. Waaaa Waaaa." Growing up we had a name for people like that: "Fruits".
People **** each other off every day, rightly or wrongly, intentionally or unintentionally. Among honorable men, however, that does not usually lead to the kind of split that happened in this case. Did I **** any of the boycotters off? Sure, taking away the powers of certain vendors who had managed to put themselves in official positions as rule makers, inspectors, etc. which greatly enhanced their personal wealth; publicly suspending high profile people for detrimental conduct which they had gotten away with for years; and leveling the playing field to increase competition to the detriment of others who had enjoyed the fruits of an unlevel field for so long they had developed a sense of entitlement, ****ed some boycotters off.
But make no mistake Matt, there was NO legitimate reason or excuse for their actions and as long as I have a breath in me I will NEVER give them cover. Look at the state of the sport at the time of the boycott and look at it now. Tell me why they boycotted and formed OSS again? Who benefitted? Who suffered?
To bring the thread back around I will close with this message to the new guys who are following this discussion: No matter what happens, or how bad things seem to be, NEVER participate in a boycott and never follow a splinter group. Do what it takes within the existing system to make it better. Do not fall for anyone who claims they will make it bigger and better for you if you will only follow them. They have an agenda, a selfish and hidden one no doubt designed to serve their interest not yours. Their promise of greener pastures is invariably an empty one. Strive for unification and once achieved keep it together.
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Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Thanks Mike, the good things you bring to the table are appreciated a whole bunch. Hopefully, the spirit of continual improvement from where we are now will push everyone to give their best, positive input.
Matt Trulio
Contributor
Do check out the post right above this one. As I said, APBA Offshore LLC (you and the entire group) did many, many things right.
Also, to the credit of all the LLC investors ... they invested. Sounds obvious, right? But putting money on the line for something like this, something that has never been run successfully as a business in its entire history, takes, well, balls.
As for the rest, I can live with agreeing to disagree (and not on all of it ... as offshore racing history has shown, splinter groups never work). As for unification, wow, I don't hold out much hope, other than to hope I'm wrong.
Also, to the credit of all the LLC investors ... they invested. Sounds obvious, right? But putting money on the line for something like this, something that has never been run successfully as a business in its entire history, takes, well, balls.
As for the rest, I can live with agreeing to disagree (and not on all of it ... as offshore racing history has shown, splinter groups never work). As for unification, wow, I don't hold out much hope, other than to hope I'm wrong.
NNRT
Icon/Charter Member
Sorry Paul - have no idea - Maybe if some one gets in touch with Walter Ragazzi, he may know - all efforts of mine to contact him have failed -
Rob -
good hearing from you - again - that was when people raced and did not care about if it was filmed or not - it was just for fun !
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