XtremeRacing
Competitor
Thats about the same HP Tyler has been making for the last few yrs.
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Work!!
- Thread starter Wil Ros
- Start date
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I think Tylers are the ones for the OPA Super V where there are no rules other than twin 525's. They don't have to be EFI's or have any restrictions on them because the class is a 105mph class, not a spec class. So they use different rocker ratios, modified cams, modified ECM's, modified intakes, modified heads, etc. All of which are illegal in SVL in all of the orgs.
I just see no way to get that kind of horsepower out of a 525 where the only things allowed are to increase the compression ratio from 8.75 to 1 up to the 9.0 to 1 allowed to keep costs down so rebuilders can surface grind the heads if needed. And bore the engine from 502 Cu In up to 510 Cu In, also to keep costs down for maintaining the engine by allowing clean up, (or a rebore of .032 - so called 30 over), to turn it into a 509 cu in total can take any engine from average 540 HP at the crank (525 at the prop) up to 650 HP at the crank. Nothing else is allowed according to the rules.
I just see no way to get that kind of horsepower out of a 525 where the only things allowed are to increase the compression ratio from 8.75 to 1 up to the 9.0 to 1 allowed to keep costs down so rebuilders can surface grind the heads if needed. And bore the engine from 502 Cu In up to 510 Cu In, also to keep costs down for maintaining the engine by allowing clean up, (or a rebore of .032 - so called 30 over), to turn it into a 509 cu in total can take any engine from average 540 HP at the crank (525 at the prop) up to 650 HP at the crank. Nothing else is allowed according to the rules.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
I guees u could call little reg and he might give u some in site.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Kinda got off track here what does it matter what little R is doing that has nothing to do with Mike motor or fuel pump because little R hasnt touched Mikes motor or fuel pump Lol and Randy was way off base calling him out on it and accusing him of cheating. All this BS over a OEM FUEL PUMP.
I'm glad he started the thread ...NOT TO BE A DICK....damn hate to see what he would of posted if he was trying to be a dick.
I'm glad he started the thread ...NOT TO BE A DICK....damn hate to see what he would of posted if he was trying to be a dick.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Yeah, I think Randy got a little upset with the sealed engine at 650HP nonsense. However, Reggie did say that was with a modified ECM, not the stock one required in the class. I also think he took your comment as saying 640 was your guess as fact.
I'm more like Wil, I think the rules, and engines, are not that far apart. I think an unsealed engine at 510 Cu In and and 9.0 to 1 compression - all other aspects within the rules met as unmodified, against a sealed Merc engine at 8.75 to 1 compression and 502 cu in will be between 30HP and 40HP different. And the 250 lb additional weight required per APBA/OSS/OPA rules will make them very equal on the course.
I'm more like Wil, I think the rules, and engines, are not that far apart. I think an unsealed engine at 510 Cu In and and 9.0 to 1 compression - all other aspects within the rules met as unmodified, against a sealed Merc engine at 8.75 to 1 compression and 502 cu in will be between 30HP and 40HP different. And the 250 lb additional weight required per APBA/OSS/OPA rules will make them very equal on the course.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I have some friends who develope the engines for NASCAR for Toyota and Chrysler when they both got into the sport. They do all of the theory developement and then build the prototype engines for testing on the dyno, (simulate 500 mile races on the dynos). Plus they do the technical developement for Sonny Leonard (I was over there and saw a prototype 1005 Cu In engine on the dyno once). I'll send them the specs and changes allowed and see what they say.
By the way, there is one of Sonny's 1005 Cu In engines for sale at the bargain basement price of $95,000 on racing junk currently. $22,000 off buying one from Sonny..
By the way, there is one of Sonny's 1005 Cu In engines for sale at the bargain basement price of $95,000 on racing junk currently. $22,000 off buying one from Sonny..
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Hopefully when the new 565 come out and if SVL goes that route where wont be any issue with the RPMs . It will take yrs like with the 525 to get the code for the new boxes. Problem solved...till then we r still working on a few things r read the max RPMs and if we vet something that works we can talk about it then. I know Steve K is looking at a few options and I have a few that i will follow up with.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I think the 525 is fine. I know Mercury is talking about only 3 more years of support for the 525 program because of the 565, but by then you guys should be able to have your own program in place with a group of rebuilders certified around the country for working on and sealing them. That has to be better than adding weight, or dropping the drive, as they start to break the 95 mph speeds.
I am really with Steve on this one. The data logger systems available now, combined with the stock ECM's at a maximum rpm of what they are supposed to currently be, shold fix the problem.
Or, the simple fix now, P&G, Whistle, and so what the Cat Lite's do in APBA with the swapped ECM's before the races. I was talking with Peppers and Stihl guys in Biloxi. They said there has only been one time in all the years they did that where a ECM was goofy, not either of them, but just once. And they give you enough time to test they said, so it did not affect the boats ability to race..
Steve, didn't youtell me about a cheaper Data Logger also now?
I am really with Steve on this one. The data logger systems available now, combined with the stock ECM's at a maximum rpm of what they are supposed to currently be, shold fix the problem.
Or, the simple fix now, P&G, Whistle, and so what the Cat Lite's do in APBA with the swapped ECM's before the races. I was talking with Peppers and Stihl guys in Biloxi. They said there has only been one time in all the years they did that where a ECM was goofy, not either of them, but just once. And they give you enough time to test they said, so it did not affect the boats ability to race..
Steve, didn't youtell me about a cheaper Data Logger also now?
XtremeRacing
Competitor
That all sounds good Paul but the other thing u need to look at most of the motors in the class are 10 yrs old or older. SO next season might be a good time to start looking at up grading. Dont really know how long one want to run them into the ground. Most of the 525 running now are generation 1and that alone is a disadvantage compared to the newer motors. I just hear the other day Merc has changed the heads on the newer motors they are building right now.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
After a while u will be throughing good money after bad investing in a 10/12 yr old motor.
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Frankie,
I have to disagree with you on this. I believe as far as 525's I have the oldest engine that has not been rebuilt. My engine is an 04, making it 8 years young. It has 89 hours. If the RPM is cut back these engines will live forever !
I do agree that at 6k and running them at 6k , you would be lucky to get more than 2 yrs out of them.
Wil
I have to disagree with you on this. I believe as far as 525's I have the oldest engine that has not been rebuilt. My engine is an 04, making it 8 years young. It has 89 hours. If the RPM is cut back these engines will live forever !
I do agree that at 6k and running them at 6k , you would be lucky to get more than 2 yrs out of them.
Wil
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Wil,
You can run them at 6000 all day long and not hurt them, it how agressive you make your box. When you lean the motor out to much to try and get that extra HP out of them is when u have problems. Mark has had lengthy conversation with Dustin about just that. There are different degress you can advance the box we r on the mild side and Mark hasnt had any problems, he will be going into his 3 rd yr running it at 6000 rpms box. Another thing is we dont run at 6000rpms most of our props are dialed in fr 5700, 5800 rpms. With the type of water the SBI races are in it is very rare that you can get on the limiter for any period of time. The box is still set for 6000rmp but not all the HP it could get if you make other changes to it. So it really isnt the RMP that is the biggest problem it is timing and how lean u run the motor that is what burns the pistons not the RPMs.
Back to my orginal point I think I would have to think long and hard before I would spend $10,000 on a rebuild for a $12,000/ $15,000 motor... they r out there for that kind of money. Just a thought after a while it just isnt good business, not that boat racing is Lol.....
You can run them at 6000 all day long and not hurt them, it how agressive you make your box. When you lean the motor out to much to try and get that extra HP out of them is when u have problems. Mark has had lengthy conversation with Dustin about just that. There are different degress you can advance the box we r on the mild side and Mark hasnt had any problems, he will be going into his 3 rd yr running it at 6000 rpms box. Another thing is we dont run at 6000rpms most of our props are dialed in fr 5700, 5800 rpms. With the type of water the SBI races are in it is very rare that you can get on the limiter for any period of time. The box is still set for 6000rmp but not all the HP it could get if you make other changes to it. So it really isnt the RMP that is the biggest problem it is timing and how lean u run the motor that is what burns the pistons not the RPMs.
Back to my orginal point I think I would have to think long and hard before I would spend $10,000 on a rebuild for a $12,000/ $15,000 motor... they r out there for that kind of money. Just a thought after a while it just isnt good business, not that boat racing is Lol.....
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Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
I'm still thinking the 525 base, Vortec also, is the way to go.
In the first run, stock 525 sealed, Pirate ran basically 92 average two way. Bucanneer ran 94 average one way. With the 95mph max allowed in SBI, any biigger engine, like the 565, and you're gonna be slowing them down some other way. So, what's the point? You are for sure going to slow the boats down some how this year due to the 95 max rule. Why not stick with the 525? The 565 is just a 525 with a stroker crank to take it out to 531 Cu In. Other than that, and an improvement in the type of injection with individual coils, it's a 525. By the time Merc stops selling the 525, they say 3 years, you could have other shops all set up to certify and seal them anyway, with a final dyno check on a prop shaft dyno.
With the SBI rules of an after market block allowed, but everything has to meet the manufacturer specs other than the .032 cleanup allowed on bore, (510 Cu In Maximum), and the shave cleanup on heads, (Maximum 9.0 to 1 allowed), switching to a 565 doesn't make any sense to me. Unless you can get Mercury to support the engine in a program like they used to in the old days.
In the first run, stock 525 sealed, Pirate ran basically 92 average two way. Bucanneer ran 94 average one way. With the 95mph max allowed in SBI, any biigger engine, like the 565, and you're gonna be slowing them down some other way. So, what's the point? You are for sure going to slow the boats down some how this year due to the 95 max rule. Why not stick with the 525? The 565 is just a 525 with a stroker crank to take it out to 531 Cu In. Other than that, and an improvement in the type of injection with individual coils, it's a 525. By the time Merc stops selling the 525, they say 3 years, you could have other shops all set up to certify and seal them anyway, with a final dyno check on a prop shaft dyno.
With the SBI rules of an after market block allowed, but everything has to meet the manufacturer specs other than the .032 cleanup allowed on bore, (510 Cu In Maximum), and the shave cleanup on heads, (Maximum 9.0 to 1 allowed), switching to a 565 doesn't make any sense to me. Unless you can get Mercury to support the engine in a program like they used to in the old days.
Brucee,
Mercury never rebuilt it, all they did was replace one valve and springs.
I agree with Paul!
Wil
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Paul,
SBI isnt a big fan of sealed motors and at this time not looking at that as an option.
SBI isnt a big fan of sealed motors and at this time not looking at that as an option.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Seals have been tried for yrs going back to the F1/F2 /SV days and it didnt work then. Motor where always tampered with and the only winner were guys that had the hot motors, if the Org. cant tech the motor to some degree it just doesnt work. Same thing with the boxes if you cant check them how do u truly know what rpms a boat is running. Because an engine is seal and the motor returned from the sealer, what stops any team from changing the box as soon as they get the motor back. You would be suprised the boats that ran boxes that you just would have never guessed. Even if you didnt turn it up all the way to 6000 rpms there is still so much that Whipple can do to increases HP. Granted you wont see 610/620 but for sure 585hp, anyone that thinks different just needs to call whipple. You can still advance the timing, fuel curve, Torq curve, and anvance the cam so what does sealing truly tell you ?????? That you have all Merc internal Parts ???? I can go on and on, I think Steve M has the right idea and that might be the direction to go in the futhure, but I truly dont see how a sealed motor is beleived to be 100% leagal. Do we all forget certain boats yrs ago that everyone bitched about in F2 and SV with SEALED motors?
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imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
rpm.s can be tech , with a 200 dollar gocart tell-tail box,,,put it in the engine room ,,if you open the engine hatch after the race before the tech dept gets to your boat to check,, your D,Qed simple,,I could cure this, fast and simple,,,YOU PLAY OR GO HOME ,,,SIMPLE NO EXCEPTIONS,,,,I think the only problem is ,,in the past , it has been demenstrated that you can bully around the tech procedure..before that demenstration ,,this class HAD NO PROBLEMS ,,,,Thats all i,m going to say on this subject,,,
,PS ...SEE YOU GUYS IN THE PITS.....:sifone:
,PS ...SEE YOU GUYS IN THE PITS.....:sifone:
I dont think for a second that seals are the answer. I must not have explained my self to some of you. I do think that at this time one motor builder (Merc) is the best way to try and start to keep the class the same. Yes I am willing to spend the extra money knowing that all are motors are being built to the same spec's. I think its a great platform to start with. On top of that, back it up with a portable dyno and some tec at the sites and we are on our way to all having the same product. ECM's can be handed out to any team at random by the org. Some time soon we can add the data logger as another layer. This is the OPA/OSS/APBA way of thinking. The 525 platform is a proven motor for this class in its stock configuration.
Can someone find a way to cheat the intended rules. YES but most likely if they get cought they wont have many friends. We are all doing this as a hobby and have fun doing it. We may all have differant ideas but I would hope we could all still be friends in the end. Im sorry if I have affended the new team it was not my intent.
Can someone find a way to cheat the intended rules. YES but most likely if they get cought they wont have many friends. We are all doing this as a hobby and have fun doing it. We may all have differant ideas but I would hope we could all still be friends in the end. Im sorry if I have affended the new team it was not my intent.
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