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Why the cost???
- Thread starter db71
- Start date
Here's the bottom line guys...
It's a free and open marketplace. Opportunity abounds. Anyone that can build a better- or cheaper- mousetrap certainly has a waiting, willing market. Anyone that can build a Cigarette, MTI or Outerlimits-type and quality boat for significantly less would have long lines at their doorstep.
On engines- Who's #2? If it was ripe and lucrative, where's the Volvo Racing 525? Or the Crusader Racing 525? After Merc, there isn't even a #2. You have cottage industry type builders where one guy builds the engines. The only contender on the horizon is Ilmor. And while they make a great product and have admirably invested major sums in a program in a down market, they're not yet what you could call prolific. Nor are they dramatically undercutting Merc on price.
It's a free and open marketplace. Opportunity abounds. Anyone that can build a better- or cheaper- mousetrap certainly has a waiting, willing market. Anyone that can build a Cigarette, MTI or Outerlimits-type and quality boat for significantly less would have long lines at their doorstep.
On engines- Who's #2? If it was ripe and lucrative, where's the Volvo Racing 525? Or the Crusader Racing 525? After Merc, there isn't even a #2. You have cottage industry type builders where one guy builds the engines. The only contender on the horizon is Ilmor. And while they make a great product and have admirably invested major sums in a program in a down market, they're not yet what you could call prolific. Nor are they dramatically undercutting Merc on price.
My sentiments exactly.
I wonder what those stacks would look like on top of a PSI blower?
macjazzy
Charter Member
You are right in that these company's are in business to make money and any company can charge whatever the market will bare for their product. But it seems prety obvious that the market is not bareing these prices any longer. Boat manufacturers have been going out of business like single elimination in the NCAA march tournement.
My thought is a large part of the reason these boat manufacturers have gone under is the cost of engines/drives/marine accesories that they have no control over. !9 foot runabouts are up to 30-40k dollars.
I bought a brand new Coablt 190 in 1996 for 20k. Explain to me the reason that boat now costs 40k. The technology is the same, the engines are the same, no air bags, no anti lock brakes, no built in electronics, no added safety features, no advances at all in 14 years, but the price has doubled.
14 years in the auto industry is a life time. Compare what you could buy in 1996 to what you can buy now in regards to technology inovation, safety, fuel economy, performance, amenities etc. Night and day yet still not a 100% increase in price. Yet when you factor in all those advances they could almost justify a 100-200% increase in price compared to most boats that may be the exact same hull mold from 1996 to now.
The big model year changes for most boat builders is usually only paint options, and a cup holder moved around from year to year.
My thought is a large part of the reason these boat manufacturers have gone under is the cost of engines/drives/marine accesories that they have no control over. !9 foot runabouts are up to 30-40k dollars.
I bought a brand new Coablt 190 in 1996 for 20k. Explain to me the reason that boat now costs 40k. The technology is the same, the engines are the same, no air bags, no anti lock brakes, no built in electronics, no added safety features, no advances at all in 14 years, but the price has doubled.
14 years in the auto industry is a life time. Compare what you could buy in 1996 to what you can buy now in regards to technology inovation, safety, fuel economy, performance, amenities etc. Night and day yet still not a 100% increase in price. Yet when you factor in all those advances they could almost justify a 100-200% increase in price compared to most boats that may be the exact same hull mold from 1996 to now.
The big model year changes for most boat builders is usually only paint options, and a cup holder moved around from year to year.
phragle
Charter Member
WHY?? we are like a captive dog, we came to the back porch for dinner yesterday, we will come for dinner today and we will come for dinner tomorrow....
Aside from government price fixing and illegal collusion among manufacturers, there's only one reason anything costs what it does- whether it's a $40K boat or a gallon of gas. It's what people are willing to pay for it.
If someone could make that identical boat and retail it for $30K the manufacturer selling them for $40K wouldn't have many sales. But all things being equal, the guy selling it for $40K in a world as competitive and as easy to get into as boat manufacturing probabaly isn't knocking down a huge gross margin, nor does he likely have any way of building equivalent product for significantly less money. So if he's taking market share on price, he's not going to be around long. And like dave said earlier, Why make a thousand on a $30K boat and sell 10 when I can make $10K on one? And my gross cost is now way lower- no cost of acquisition on the customer, no killer overhead, etc.
Uncle Dave
New member
db71- Its really hard to figure out why the costs are what they are until you actually see it all go together from scratch.
I had the amazing experience about 1 year ago to watch my own boat go from a signed deal to hitting the water. I documented the entire build bi weekly and was astonished just how hard it really is.
If you ever get a chance to watch a boat go together week by week- youll understand why the costs are what they are.
Count the guys hours, the component costs, custom interiors, custom paint and gellcoats- hell whats it cost for a super high quality paint job on a car?
much less a vehicle with 4x the surface area.
How do they recover the time making plugs and molds? There is so much time and money spent here its ridiculous.
In the mid 90's if you had 500 HP anywhere you were pretty much a baller, but the easy money era of the 2001-2005 made 500 hp a starting point.
whats a z06 costs new - it has 500HP and they make multiple units a day.
Whats a zr-1 with 640HP cost 100K?
I'm amazed at what you can get for 150K.
Uncle Dave
I had the amazing experience about 1 year ago to watch my own boat go from a signed deal to hitting the water. I documented the entire build bi weekly and was astonished just how hard it really is.
If you ever get a chance to watch a boat go together week by week- youll understand why the costs are what they are.
Count the guys hours, the component costs, custom interiors, custom paint and gellcoats- hell whats it cost for a super high quality paint job on a car?
much less a vehicle with 4x the surface area.
How do they recover the time making plugs and molds? There is so much time and money spent here its ridiculous.
In the mid 90's if you had 500 HP anywhere you were pretty much a baller, but the easy money era of the 2001-2005 made 500 hp a starting point.
whats a z06 costs new - it has 500HP and they make multiple units a day.
Whats a zr-1 with 640HP cost 100K?
I'm amazed at what you can get for 150K.
Uncle Dave
One can do a lot to keep cost down simply by not checking every box on the option list other than K-planes, full hydraulic steering, and appropriate-sized mills. Skip the E-Plex, $50K paint job, billet this and that, AC, microwave, vacu-flush head, gen, block party stereo system, etc.
macjazzy
Charter Member
Well like lots of things in life and in boating in general it would seem we won't (nor did I expect to) settle this here. It's an ongoing discussion that has gone on since we all started boating and will go on long after I suppose.
We seem to have equal parts " why does it cost this much for what seems to be old technology or why does it cost this much to build what I can buy cheaper in another industry" to "it costs what is cost because we will pay it, or it costs what it costs because you just dont understand the biz"
Neither is an end all be all argument to make here. I will absolutely agree all my posts are simply my opinion and are not based on anything other some knowledge of the automobile industry and very little knowledge of manufactering in general.
We seem to have equal parts " why does it cost this much for what seems to be old technology or why does it cost this much to build what I can buy cheaper in another industry" to "it costs what is cost because we will pay it, or it costs what it costs because you just dont understand the biz"
Neither is an end all be all argument to make here. I will absolutely agree all my posts are simply my opinion and are not based on anything other some knowledge of the automobile industry and very little knowledge of manufactering in general.
GENERAL LEE
Founding Member - E Dock
That is exactly what the bottom line is.
You don't have an Ilmor service center on nearly every body of water in the country either.
Comparing cars to boats, is barely apples to apples. Cars don't take anywhere near the abuse boats do in ALL aspects of their totally differetn environments. The engines couldn't be more different in regards to setup, and making them live longer than a weekend. Cars don't have to be prepared for salt water concerns, which are a huge, unspoken, detail.
If someone has to compare cars to boats, you only have to look at the Mercedes MTI. When it was brand new, it had an SL dash & components. Once the boat started being used, all of that had to come out or be replaced with marine parts, because it wasn't holding up to the various elements that a boat takes on a constant basis.
How has the price of a boat, car, or engine, increased since 1996? Seriously?
? Other than that being 14 years ago......obviously there have been some changes in economic inflation has increased, oil prices (which directly affect resin prices & other building materials), employee wages have increased, the list goes on with common sense reasons. The technology has absolutely changed for the better over that timeframe. It's interesting that there are very few people, if any, posting complaints in this thread, that own any of the boats & engines being complained about? A few of the comments are laced with just outright jealousy aimed at the producers of these boats & engines.....why the hate? There's no reason to be condescending toward something that can't be had for the price you want to pay, or especially the people that build these items. It's high performance boating, which always has, and always will be expensive. Anyone that's been enjoying this sport, and learning about it by visiting factories, going to events, and asking questions to the right people, know what it takes beyond the paintjob to build them.
There are plenty of production style boats & engines out there, that will probably get you on the water every weekend for half the price of the elite brands. So there's no reason to complain about the few that are high priced, high performance, and highly sought after, just because they take it leaps & bounds further than the average is assumed to be.
macjazzy
Charter Member
"Comparing cars to boats, is barely apples to apples. Cars don't take anywhere near the abuse boats do in ALL aspects of either vehicle. The engines couldn't be more different in regards to setup, and making them live longer than a weekend. Cars don't have to be prepared for salt water concerns, which are a huge, unspoken, detail.
If you HAVE to compare cars to boats, you only have to look at the Mercedes MTI. When it was brand new, it had an SL dash & components. Once the boat started being used, all of that had to come out or be replaced with marine parts, because it wasn't holding up to the various elements that a boat takes on a constant basis."
Comparing boats to autos is NOT a apples to apples comparison, but its pretty close. No, cars obviously don't need to be built to handle salt water, but that 600hp ZR1 vette is expected to idle all the time, no matter how hot or cold it is. How its driven, ie babied, or run hard. Meet a fuel milage requirement regulated by the government and an emmissions standard regulated federally and locally and meet that for years and years to come.
That car also most have all creature comforts, protect its occupants in the most horrific crashes, and automatically adjust to different size and weight passengers. Has anti lock braking, traction control, ride control, active suspension. 6-7 speed transmission with full electronic control. Power everything inside. All of which is expected by the consumer to work without a hiccup for the life of the vehicle. And the warr lasts in most cases for 36k miles if not more. During which period the dealers are expected by the consumer to cover every aspect of the vehicle regardless of whether the cupholder broke because the owner crammed a monster big gulp cup full of over 2lbs of liquid into a holder made for a cup of coffee. And if you say it broke because of something the customer did? They say " I paid x thousand dollars for this car it should be able to do whatever"
So yes car engines are rarely run at 4k rpms for hours at a time, nor are they jumped free of the surface they travel on over and over. But they are expected by the public to run flawlessly in any weather or any condition for millions of different driving styles and do it for years and years providing regulated emmissions no matter how often the car is serviced for almos the life of the engine. Not to mention modern autos are monsterously more complex for even a moderately priced automobile today.
I also don't buy the salt water argument, boats ARE built different because of salt water, at least the better ones are. But go to the local dealer because you took spray on your dash and some of the switches corroded and see what he tells you. For that matter ask Merc to give you new headers because yours corroded. No builder will warr salt water corroded parts even though they know a good portion of their product will be exposed to it and they will tell you they used stainless this or sealed that to protect against that very issue. But when those measures fail, and they will, you the consumer are left holding the bag, or corroded part as it were.
A perfect example of this would be early Mercuiser Bravo 3's they would rust off the boat in a year. Merc said it was because the owner didn't care for it properly or used any other argument they could to not cover it. If your new Mercedes got a rust hole in the door in the first year you owned it and the dealer said you didnt wash and wax the car enough would you be satisfied with that?
Boats are hardly held to the same standard if you want to make that argument.
If you HAVE to compare cars to boats, you only have to look at the Mercedes MTI. When it was brand new, it had an SL dash & components. Once the boat started being used, all of that had to come out or be replaced with marine parts, because it wasn't holding up to the various elements that a boat takes on a constant basis."
Comparing boats to autos is NOT a apples to apples comparison, but its pretty close. No, cars obviously don't need to be built to handle salt water, but that 600hp ZR1 vette is expected to idle all the time, no matter how hot or cold it is. How its driven, ie babied, or run hard. Meet a fuel milage requirement regulated by the government and an emmissions standard regulated federally and locally and meet that for years and years to come.
That car also most have all creature comforts, protect its occupants in the most horrific crashes, and automatically adjust to different size and weight passengers. Has anti lock braking, traction control, ride control, active suspension. 6-7 speed transmission with full electronic control. Power everything inside. All of which is expected by the consumer to work without a hiccup for the life of the vehicle. And the warr lasts in most cases for 36k miles if not more. During which period the dealers are expected by the consumer to cover every aspect of the vehicle regardless of whether the cupholder broke because the owner crammed a monster big gulp cup full of over 2lbs of liquid into a holder made for a cup of coffee. And if you say it broke because of something the customer did? They say " I paid x thousand dollars for this car it should be able to do whatever"
So yes car engines are rarely run at 4k rpms for hours at a time, nor are they jumped free of the surface they travel on over and over. But they are expected by the public to run flawlessly in any weather or any condition for millions of different driving styles and do it for years and years providing regulated emmissions no matter how often the car is serviced for almos the life of the engine. Not to mention modern autos are monsterously more complex for even a moderately priced automobile today.
I also don't buy the salt water argument, boats ARE built different because of salt water, at least the better ones are. But go to the local dealer because you took spray on your dash and some of the switches corroded and see what he tells you. For that matter ask Merc to give you new headers because yours corroded. No builder will warr salt water corroded parts even though they know a good portion of their product will be exposed to it and they will tell you they used stainless this or sealed that to protect against that very issue. But when those measures fail, and they will, you the consumer are left holding the bag, or corroded part as it were.
A perfect example of this would be early Mercuiser Bravo 3's they would rust off the boat in a year. Merc said it was because the owner didn't care for it properly or used any other argument they could to not cover it. If your new Mercedes got a rust hole in the door in the first year you owned it and the dealer said you didnt wash and wax the car enough would you be satisfied with that?
Boats are hardly held to the same standard if you want to make that argument.
htrdlncn
New member
Actually Volvo did make 400-600hp carb and efi big block packages that looked almost identical to Merc.
I dont think anyone can stand up to Merc,
Merc has close ties to almost every major boat
manufacturer and to GM .
Hard to go up against a monster that big.
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Merc is miniscule in terms of modern corporations. There are a significant number of auto manufacturers that didn't exist when I was a kid and those businesses dwarf Merc and parent Brunswick.
If there was all the money to be made that everyone thinks is there, there would be someone else in that space.
And there's no such thing as "close ties". There's ability to do business with and the only barrier is contractual obligation. If I wanted to buy from GM even half of what Merc buys, their jet would be here in the morning.
Matt Trulio
Contributor
I think Chris nailed it.
I do sometimes wonder why people get all upset about performance-boat and marine engine prices. It's not about fairness—it's about the free market.
Hey, I would love to have a Porsche Cayman. But I'm not pissed at Porsche for pricing it out of my range.
Take a look at what it costs to send a kid to college. Even if my son, a high school junior, had the grades to get into Stanford, his mother and I couldn't afford it. And still, I'm not pissed at Stanford.
I do sometimes wonder why people get all upset about performance-boat and marine engine prices. It's not about fairness—it's about the free market.
Hey, I would love to have a Porsche Cayman. But I'm not pissed at Porsche for pricing it out of my range.
Take a look at what it costs to send a kid to college. Even if my son, a high school junior, had the grades to get into Stanford, his mother and I couldn't afford it. And still, I'm not pissed at Stanford.
Dude! Sweet!
Charter Member
My sentiments exactly.
I wonder what those stacks would look like on top of a PSI blower?
With a pro-stock hood scoop on top!
jhenrie
New member
Watch out , your talking custom work now. The price will easily double with this thread in mind .
I'm just gonna go to bayliner and "buy one off the lot " . Who needs custom anyway , it's just a boat. :sifone:
GENERAL LEE
Founding Member - E Dock
Whether you meant to or not, thank you for doing a far better job of illustrating my explanation than I did. :cheers2:
Even shorter: I think the people that come up with the designs & improved ways for us to go fast on the water year to year, deserve the accolades & compensation for doing so. It's probably a blessing that they don't have to deal with the many "haters", that think the entire industry can be compared to the building & warranty program, of a Chrysler minivan. Get over it
macjazzy
Charter Member
"It's probably a blessing that they don't have to deal with the many "haters", that think the entire industry can be compared to the building & warranty program, of a Chrysler minivan. Get over it "
Well I definitely feel like you read and considered my argument fully before replying in such a concise and pointed manner. You are right, of course, I have been put in my place now.
Well I definitely feel like you read and considered my argument fully before replying in such a concise and pointed manner. You are right, of course, I have been put in my place now.
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