Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Thanks, some haven't had the chance to find out about this yet. So, they haven't believed it.
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The Positive SVL thread
- Thread starter heater63
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Thanks, some haven't had the chance to find out about this yet. So, they haven't believed it.
Can I make a suggestion about this conference call.Select 1,2 or 3 topics to discuss,give each topic a limited time and end it after that time.if nothing is settled in that time slot,table it for the next time and then move on to the next subject.I have been on many conference calls where you have 2,3 and sometimes 4 people all trying to get a word in at the same time and nothing ever gets settled. This is gonna take many,many conference calls.I think a conference call is a great idea and will keep things moving in a positive direction
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
Wish they were. And I think the racers should have input before the rules are set in stone.
The bigger gray issues are ballast tanks, gear ratios, prop diameters, correcting bottom issues vs modifying the bottom, rpm, modified ecms, aerodynamic tendencies of the hull design, no changes to the design of the drive vs adding a nose cone which must be approved by the org 30 days prior to competition, etc. Many of these things are unpoliceable. Like bottom modifications. How do you make sure a boat still fits the mold of a homologized hull? That is the only requirement in one org, and in another there are no requirements governing hull modifications.
Most of the issues are because of differences in rules between the orgs. Like running the 1.69 gear in SBI vs not allowed in the other two. But, then one team, ran the 1.69 in one of the other orgs, with the bigger prop, because it was legal elsewhere. Same with bottom modifications vs bottom changes and reprogramming ecm's.
I'd like to see no ballast tanks, 1.50 max gear ratio, 15.75 diameter prop max, no hull water pickups allowed, a maximum rpm measured with a data acquisition unit, etc.
If the drive issue and prop diameter are not addressed, one of these days we will see a surface piercing Bravo type drive because of a new hull and prop design. I'd guess a 3 to 5 mph advantage with the right combination.
Another issue is with the ecm's being allowed to be modified, a high dollar team can eliminate all others as we've seen, by reprogramming the late model merc to run at around 6000+ rpm where the earlier merc's will not, but it will probably only last around 30 hours based on testing, but will make an additional 40hp. But, if you have the money, who cares. You can still go collect trophies. That is why a maximum rpm should be addressed.
Anyway, I hope some of these things are addressed. The small improvements to a hull you can do in your garage means nothing compared to having unlimited funds to reprogram ecm's and rebuild engines with a short life span.
And, as we've certainly found out, the tech rules need to be simple enough that the boats get teched who place in the top three at every race. If they are too complex, you have those who know they won't get teched only getting caught cheating by accident when making a tactical error.
I firmly believe a sealed engine program only makes it easy for the serious cheaters to avoid detection because they know they will not get teched if they have duplicated the seals. And, as we know in today's world, duplicating the seals with rapid prototype technology is only a couple days work if you have the funds available to you.
That is why I think Whistler compression units and P&G cubic inch measurement units should be used vs sealed engines. That, combined with the maximum rpm measured while racing, weight minimum, width min/max, height minx, prop diameter max, water pickup in drive, and possibly drive height will make it so that it will almost be impossible to cheat.
No ballast tanks is also to eliminate cronic cheaters. In P1 they have no water pickups allowed other than engine cooling, and it must be external to the engine on entry and exit.
I would also always leave the clause of some kind about parity. My best thought is it should be RPM's so that other boat builders and engine builders can participate.
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Yesterday, 08:41 PM
Paul with all due respect ,,you guys are talking like the whole class has cancer..WE HAD ZERO ISSUES BEFORE FOUNTAIN ,,PERIOD,,, now if you know something i don,t ( i,m sure you do) this class policed it self,,,we all always had an open boat policy ( started by willie ross) and if we wanted something checked ,we simply asked the owner would he mind showing his hand,,these guys and girls are first class people and want to race next to eachother,, i can give you the answer to speed ,,test ,,test ,,test ,,and this is what you move untill you hit the mark ,,weight placement,,, x - dim ,,, props (a lot) = speed ,, pick a set up ,go run it ,,bring a 5 gal bucket,,after you run ,put 1 bucket of water in the bilge ( 30# ) if you go alittle faster ,,add another bucket ( 60 ) ect...test and kiss = speed ,,, good luck to all ,,
The bigger gray issues are ballast tanks, gear ratios, prop diameters, correcting bottom issues vs modifying the bottom, rpm, modified ecms, aerodynamic tendencies of the hull design, no changes to the design of the drive vs adding a nose cone which must be approved by the org 30 days prior to competition, etc. Many of these things are unpoliceable. Like bottom modifications. How do you make sure a boat still fits the mold of a homologized hull? That is the only requirement in one org, and in another there are no requirements governing hull modifications.
Most of the issues are because of differences in rules between the orgs. Like running the 1.69 gear in SBI vs not allowed in the other two. But, then one team, ran the 1.69 in one of the other orgs, with the bigger prop, because it was legal elsewhere. Same with bottom modifications vs bottom changes and reprogramming ecm's.
I'd like to see no ballast tanks, 1.50 max gear ratio, 15.75 diameter prop max, no hull water pickups allowed, a maximum rpm measured with a data acquisition unit, etc.
If the drive issue and prop diameter are not addressed, one of these days we will see a surface piercing Bravo type drive because of a new hull and prop design. I'd guess a 3 to 5 mph advantage with the right combination.
Another issue is with the ecm's being allowed to be modified, a high dollar team can eliminate all others as we've seen, by reprogramming the late model merc to run at around 6000+ rpm where the earlier merc's will not, but it will probably only last around 30 hours based on testing, but will make an additional 40hp. But, if you have the money, who cares. You can still go collect trophies. That is why a maximum rpm should be addressed.
Anyway, I hope some of these things are addressed. The small improvements to a hull you can do in your garage means nothing compared to having unlimited funds to reprogram ecm's and rebuild engines with a short life span.
And, as we've certainly found out, the tech rules need to be simple enough that the boats get teched who place in the top three at every race. If they are too complex, you have those who know they won't get teched only getting caught cheating by accident when making a tactical error.
I firmly believe a sealed engine program only makes it easy for the serious cheaters to avoid detection because they know they will not get teched if they have duplicated the seals. And, as we know in today's world, duplicating the seals with rapid prototype technology is only a couple days work if you have the funds available to you.
That is why I think Whistler compression units and P&G cubic inch measurement units should be used vs sealed engines. That, combined with the maximum rpm measured while racing, weight minimum, width min/max, height minx, prop diameter max, water pickup in drive, and possibly drive height will make it so that it will almost be impossible to cheat.
No ballast tanks is also to eliminate cronic cheaters. In P1 they have no water pickups allowed other than engine cooling, and it must be external to the engine on entry and exit.
I would also always leave the clause of some kind about parity. My best thought is it should be RPM's so that other boat builders and engine builders can participate.
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Yesterday, 08:41 PM
Paul with all due respect ,,you guys are talking like the whole class has cancer..WE HAD ZERO ISSUES BEFORE FOUNTAIN ,,PERIOD,,, now if you know something i don,t ( i,m sure you do) this class policed it self,,,we all always had an open boat policy ( started by willie ross) and if we wanted something checked ,we simply asked the owner would he mind showing his hand,,these guys and girls are first class people and want to race next to eachother,, i can give you the answer to speed ,,test ,,test ,,test ,,and this is what you move untill you hit the mark ,,weight placement,,, x - dim ,,, props (a lot) = speed ,, pick a set up ,go run it ,,bring a 5 gal bucket,,after you run ,put 1 bucket of water in the bilge ( 30# ) if you go alittle faster ,,add another bucket ( 60 ) ect...test and kiss = speed ,,, good luck to all ,,
XtremeRacing
Competitor
getting it paper, we should have something pretty solid by the beginning of next wk. Richie will be traveling for the next few days and we will hit it again after the Holiday.
If anyone is interested in being part of the conferance call PM a number we can reach you at.
Frank
If anyone is interested in being part of the conferance call PM a number we can reach you at.
Frank
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Wil,
You got it
You got it
Wreckdoctor
Competitor
Frank, pm sent with contact info, please let me know when it will be.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Every item I mentioned had absolutely nothing to do with the original "VL Dozen". If you recall the only error I ever, and still, think you made was not to put what the Dozen agreed to in writing and have it signed as to the rules for 2010. And, if anyone else wished to participate, they had to sign off as agreeing to those rules.
And, on the record, I do not for a second think the class has cancer, only a boat. But, as of now, I believe unless you fix it right so that CANNOT happen again, more of the same will happen. Why, what spec class had the most boats in any race and the most publicity this year??????
Get it right, more will come. Allow what happened this year to happen again, it will be like every other Vee class in a short period of time.
Face it, you're lucky someone made a tactical error in Key West. The rules, and tech, certainly didn't catch the issues.
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
Paul your right ,but in the past ( before Fountain ) once the class voted on a rule .that was it ,,we were done ,, as for key west ,,they had to catch it ,,the whole world saw it ,,as for the past year ,,3 or 4 of us wanted it checked ,,but fell on def ears.. I,m not picking your post ,,we need to learn from it ,and some still think the class still has the say,,,WE DON,T,,, THE ORG,S DO,,WE LOST THAT PRIVLIAGE,, now we wait to see what the org,s put in print ,and see where we fit,,they all know what the class is looking for ..RULES, ENFORCED,,,A SCHEDULE,,AND AFFORDABILTY,,THEN I THINK THE CLASS WILL PICK 6 OR 7 RACES ,,DONE,,Just my 2 cents,,,
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Once the rules are in place, I agree. Put your 2 cents in now, all unified again, and I'm sure they will listen.
It's not like you didn't start out with a great plan, you just forgot not everyone are sportsmanlike racers.......
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
thank you ,,EVERYONE HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY ..:USA:
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
the rule IS 30 '
XtremeRacing
Competitor
SBI is also looking at changing it to Max of 30 ft. Looks like something that will be changed.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Current SBI
6.3.
BOAT SPECIFICATIONS:
Super V Limited
Hull Type: Monohull (Canopy Recommended)
Length: 26’– 0” minimum to 32’-0” maximum
Beam Maximum: 8’6”
Number of Engines: One
Weight Minimum: 4750 lbs.
Engine Type: SBIP Certified Race Engine
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Current OSS
All OSS Vee Lite (VL) classes must strictly adhere to the
following specifications along with the general rules pertaining to all OSS classes.
1. Weights and Dimensions:
VL
Hull type:
Monohull
Length minimum 26' 0"
Length maximum: 32' 0"
Beam maximum: 8' 6"
Number of engines: 1
Weight minimum, Bravo, Imco drive 4750 lbs
All OSS Vee Lite (VL) classes must strictly adhere to the
following specifications along with the general rules pertaining to all OSS classes.
1. Weights and Dimensions:
VL
Hull type:
Monohull
Length minimum 26' 0"
Length maximum: 32' 0"
Beam maximum: 8' 6"
Number of engines: 1
Weight minimum, Bravo, Imco drive 4750 lbs
2TR
Competitor
Last edited:
