The Great Unification

[Ratickle]

Anyway, in business I mostly ask questions to find out what worked and what didn't. It's always surprising how many businesses know all the answers within their own business and never figure it out because they have preconceived notions about what went wrong when something was going well but faltered. Only because they don't talk to each other.

It looks like there is a lot of information different racers have that would be very helpful if everyone decided they wanted to take another shot at growing the sport. I know I'm learning a lot. And I'm just trying to decide what kind of boat to race.

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

That is incorrect. We had Super V and V lite with 525's or Vortecs in 2002 and on.
In 2004 it was simply a copy of the LLC under the OSS banner (less the Vortec).
Steve

The date of SuperV '04 was off by two years. The rest is accurate wouldn't you say?

 

[Mike A.]

Actually Jim, truth is that our SV and SC classes were rocking and growing because we had a very strict set of rules limiting hull changes from year to year to year and requiring homologation. Those classes produced multiple winners in varying conditions each year. What happened to the classes after that was a direct result of the same thing that had ruined most classes prior to the LLC which is this: The inmates got control of the asylum, insisting upon rule changes that favored them, or so they thought. Turned out, however, what really happened was that without the LLC controls the boat builders started building better mousetraps for everyone who walked in the door, rendering each prior boat effectively obsolete before it even hit the water.

If you go back and check the LLC's record, with the strict controls in place, the older boats stayed competitive for years thus preserving our customers' substantial investments.

Bottom line: Give the racers and vendors control over the rule process and you assure the sport's destruction.

 

[Sean Stinson]

Actually Jim, truth is that our SV and SC classes were rocking and growing because we had a very strict set of rules limiting hull changes from year to year to year and requiring homologation. Those classes produced multiple winners in varying conditions each year. What happened to the classes after that was a direct result of the same thing that had ruined most classes prior to the LLC which is this: The inmates got control of the asylum, insisting upon rule changes that favored them, or so they thought. Turned out, however, what really happened was that without the LLC controls the boat builders started building better mousetraps for everyone who walked in the door, rendering each prior boat effectively obsolete before it even hit the water.

If you go back and check the LLC's record, with the strict controls in place, the older boats stayed competitive for years thus preserving our customers' substantial investments.

Bottom line: Give the racers and vendors control over the rule process and you assure the sport's destruction.

That is a very true statement but continue on as I have absolutely pi$$ed everyone of to the point some wont even return my calls now!! I guess I touched some nerves!!!!

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Mike, I was right in the middle of F2 and SV from 98 to 2001. SV was changing motors and weights on a regular basis. I agree you preserved some F2 equipment value, but SV changed frequently for a while. Its still changing.

I can't believe the Super V with 525 and 6's didn't last. Cat light in that configuration is still hanging. When I look at those two classes I think they are perfect. Fast enough and very dependable. It seems that those two and outboard cat just aren't cool enough to get the wealth guys attention. They should be the premiere classes.

I find it hard to stay enthusiastic after all these years.

 

[Buoy]

The Hp500 carb was perfect for this class. The Hp500efi was working I thought but costs kept going up and up with the 500efi and then the 525efi. Each year Mercury was trying to bleed more from the racers for new engines. I always felt that was the real failure of Factory Class.

Forgive me for ignorance, I was not involved and don't know it from the inside.
Educate me here, or correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to recall Merc or APBA, or whoever... Changing the required motor a few years in a row, or at the most, running the same motor package only two or so consecutive seasons.
I seem to remember that a lot of racers decided to get out of the F classes due to this extra cost every season, and just moved into different classes.
I'm thinking this is what really killed the F classes.

FM - I fully agree, the F classes were some of the best modern-day racing - not to take anything away from the guys that are out there running now.
This class also got a lot more attention from the boat manufacturer. It was truly a "Race it Sunday, Drive it Monday" type boat.
This also brought out the factories working on more efficiencies in the hulls, and introducing them to the public boating market (Steps...)
If I'm correct, this was the era when this all took place.
You also had manufacturers stepping up, and racing and sponsoring their own boats - what a better way to advertise for increased sales than to be able to tout a win last week in insert location

Just my thoughts, and what I seem to remember going on at the time.
Let the guys that were involved correct my misstatements - I mean no disrespect, and am aware I could be very wrong on all this. Just what I seem to remember.

 

[Sean Stinson]

I think some of the Factory Classes demise were a few accidents for the most part and then some of the CRE engine deal with a one location thing but that was to maintain parity I remember alot of *****ing about it but we went along....Then the boycott thing later I still believe it was a whole bunch of circumstances that cumulated into a bunch of people throwing in the towel!!!!

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Turned out, however, what really happened was that without the LLC controls the boat builders started building better mousetraps for everyone who walked in the door, rendering each prior boat effectively obsolete before it even hit the water.



Bottom line: Give the racers and vendors control over the rule process and you assure the sport's destruction.

Thing is manufactures and engine builders had their own agendas. Boats and motors were going to evolve.

Another thing that happened over and over again is the truly prepared teams got penalized in the name of parody. Rules get written, boats get built to the letter of the rule, it does well and the rule changes.

 

[1waterboy1]

Actually Jim, truth is that our SV and SC classes were rocking and growing because we had a very strict set of rules limiting hull changes from year to year to year and requiring homologation. Those classes produced multiple winners in varying conditions each year. What happened to the classes after that was a direct result of the same thing that had ruined most classes prior to the LLC which is this: The inmates got control of the asylum, insisting upon rule changes that favored them, or so they thought. Turned out, however, what really happened was that without the LLC controls the boat builders started building better mousetraps for everyone who walked in the door, rendering each prior boat effectively obsolete before it even hit the water.

If you go back and check the LLC's record, with the strict controls in place, the older boats stayed competitive for years thus preserving our customers' substantial investments.

Bottom line: Give the racers and vendors control over the rule process and you assure the sport's destruction.

I totally agree; and the results are the real proof that racers and vendors should not have input or control over the technical rules.This cycle has repeated itself in offshore and other forms of motorsports time and time again.

 

[Steve Miklos]

The date of SuperV '04 was off by two years. The rest is accurate wouldn't you say?

Not really because in 2001 we realized Factory class was getting pushed into what you described. By 2002 we implemented Factory Class with safety cells staggered engines (SV,SVL). We had a good fleet in 2002 in SV and SVL. This was also needed because you cannot safely race a open cockpit boat close to an aggressive competitor in a safety cell.

The pressure was off the Factory classes from that point of view. The problem was allowing the 525. The ECM was fudged by Mercury Racing so we missed our weights and X dimension requirements. The non 525 boats were obsolete and the momentum was lost.
Steve

 

[Steve Miklos]

Forgive me for ignorance, I was not involved and don't know it from the inside.
Educate me here, or correct me if I'm wrong.

I seem to recall Merc or APBA, or whoever... Changing the required motor a few years in a row, or at the most, running the same motor package only two or so consecutive seasons.
I seem to remember that a lot of racers decided to get out of the F classes due to this extra cost every season, and just moved into different classes.
I'm thinking this is what really killed the F classes.

FM - I fully agree, the F classes were some of the best modern-day racing - not to take anything away from the guys that are out there running now.
This class also got a lot more attention from the boat manufacturer. It was truly a "Race it Sunday, Drive it Monday" type boat.
This also brought out the factories working on more efficiencies in the hulls, and introducing them to the public boating market (Steps...)
If I'm correct, this was the era when this all took place.
You also had manufacturers stepping up, and racing and sponsoring their own boats - what a better way to advertise for increased sales than to be able to tout a win last week in insert location

Just my thoughts, and what I seem to remember going on at the time.
Let the guys that were involved correct my misstatements - I mean no disrespect, and am aware I could be very wrong on all this. Just what I seem to remember.

That is all accurate. The APBA and the racers were told at the same time in Biloxi 1998 (after running the carb for just 2 years) That the EFI was coming and the carb was gone. This is after APBA selling more blue motors than Mercury Racing had in it's history. Mercury sent a guy and he told us all how it was. Gene was running APBA Mike A and I largely had a backseat at that time. 1999-2002 was good and the numbers show it even with the dot com collapse we had full fields. The introduction of the 525 (making 573 hp on average) was the real killer. When we dyno tested the 525 they made about 545 hp when the season started a new ECM appeard on all the boats as did about 30 hp. We were really trapped we had added weight and the additional drag of the Sportmaster but you could not win without a 525. When we attempted to make the necessary moves Mercury Racing showed us what being a monopoly is all about.
Steve

 

[Steve Miklos]

Thing is manufactures and engine builders had their own agendas. Boats and motors were going to evolve.

Another thing that happened over and over again is the truly prepared teams got penalized in the name of parody. Rules get written, boats get built to the letter of the rule, it does well and the rule changes.

I certainly hope you are not talking about adding strakes to the Spiderman Skater and trying to hide it.
Steve

 

[Steve Miklos]

Mike, I was right in the middle of F2 and SV from 98 to 2001. SV was changing motors and weights on a regular basis. I agree you preserved some F2 equipment value, but SV changed frequently for a while. Its still changing.

I can't believe the Super V with 525 and 6's didn't last. Cat light in that configuration is still hanging. When I look at those two classes I think they are perfect. Fast enough and very dependable. It seems that those two and outboard cat just aren't cool enough to get the wealth guys attention. They should be the premiere classes.

I find it hard to stay enthusiastic after all these years.

Once we took Super V to sealed motors (2002)there were no changes. I cannot think of one rule change.
Steve

 

[Buoy]

I understand safety being a big issue, and the call for canopied boats.
But, I think part of the reason F class did well is because "Joe Spectator" (myself) could relate to an open boat so much more.

It also made it more exciting to watch a couple guys bouncing around and holding on for life. I certainly don't want any to be injured or worse racing, but if the problem was the boats getting too fast under those conditions (open boats) contain the problem, and go back to a reasonable motor package.

If I'm out of line, just tell me to STFU, and I'll take a back step.
Just trying to give you some insight from a spectator point of view, maybe eventually I'll be able to get in and race.

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I certainly hope you are not talking about adding strakes to the Spiderman Skater and trying to hide it.
Steve

I was talking about older SuperV blower boats and weights.

What year are you talking about? How do you hide strakes? I thought strakes were removed.

It didn't matter that boat design made all others Obsolete. IMO

Did you ever try to formulate a hull efficiency factor?

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I understand safety being a big issue, and the call for canopied boats.
But, I think part of the reason F class did well is because "Joe Spectator" (myself) could relate to an open boat so much more.

It also made it more exciting to watch a couple guys bouncing around and holding on for life. I certainly don't want any to be injured or worse racing, but if the problem was the boats getting too fast under those conditions (open boats) contain the problem, and go back to a reasonable motor package.

If I'm out of line, just tell me to STFU, and I'll take a back step.
Just trying to give you some insight from a spectator point of view, maybe eventually I'll be able to get in and race.

A long list of guys went swimming in F2. The F1 tended to spin. The f2 tended to pitch you out. It is amazing to me more were not killed.

As far as speeds go you can get hurt bad at 60 mph.

 

[Ratickle]

A long list of guys went swimming in F2. The F1 tended to spin. The f2 tended to pitch you out. It is amazing to me more were not killed.

As far as speeds go you can get hurt bad at 60 mph.

So, what would the answer have been to that issue. The class was popular. The ratings were climbing. The manufacturers were participating.

I thought the main issue was the higher speeds with the step hull mods and the enhanced 525's making speeds well up there.

 

[Steve Miklos]

I was talking about older SuperV blower boats and weights.

What year are you talking about? How do you hide strakes? I thought strakes were removed.

It didn't matter that boat design made all others Obsolete. IMO

Did you ever try to formulate a hull efficiency factor?

The boat was a an ill handling boat as homologated. The strakes were added without written permission and the boat ran quite well. The guys who played by the rules were less than amused.
Steve

 

[Steve Miklos]

So, what would the answer have been to that issue. The class was popular. The ratings were climbing. The manufacturers were participating.

I thought the main issue was the higher speeds with the step hull mods and the enhanced 525's making speeds well up there.

Factory class had stepped hulls in F1 and F2 in its first year, As the stakes went up the racers pushed harder. It became clear corners were an area where an advantage could be made and boats began to spin more frequently as racers pushed it in the corners.

It is amazing how many races went off safe but people die with full safety cells also.
Steve

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Some boats were going 90mph with 500's in '98.

My take is different then some others. The motors were advancing and boat manufactures were willing to make changes. So it went from 500's to EFI's to 525's in a short time and from Factory side by side to Canopied staggered race boats during a 4 or 5 year period. A lot of grow during a time of rapid changes.