Racerguymiami
New member
I'm on a diet. No pie for me. I'll be staying away from the pastry table.
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Sure has been quiet.
- Thread starter Racerguymiami
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I'm on a diet. No pie for me. I'll be staying away from the pastry table.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
So you are requiring a specific MSD and a data logger is available for that particular system?
Racerguymiami
New member
I think the idea is to allow for a more affordable motor available from multiple engine builders.
Whether it's a 525 or a superboat 510CID, if a competitor is going to cheat it will be difficult to police without tearing down motors.
3.9 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS –
The SUPERBOAT 510 CID Engine will be the only engine approved for the SUPERBOAT CLASS
3.9.1 DISPLACEMENT: Maximum 510 CID, minimum 495 CID per engine, (1020 CID total) with a maximum 4” stroke crankshaft.
3.9.2 COMPRESSION RATIO: The maximum compression ratio allowed is 9.5:1 measured by whistler device calibrated at race site with master cylinder.
3.9.3 VALVE SYSTEM:
3.9.3.1 Number - Two valves per cylinder operated via pushrods.
3.9.3.2 Maximum gross cam lift - measured at the valve is .720 inch with zero lash.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 23 of 55
3.9.3.3 Variable cam timing - is not allowed.
3.9.4 BLOCK:
3.9.4.1 Cast iron - must be approved by SBIP.
3.9.4.2 Chevrolet - design blocks with 9.8" or 10.2" deck heights are approved.
3.9.4.3 Chevrolet - design blocks manufactured by General Motors and World Products (Merlin) are approved. The following part numbers are approved.
3.9.4.4 GM part numbers - 10185049, 10134367, 24502502, 24502500, 12370834, 14044808, 12370833, 10051106, 10237292. World Products (Merlin) part numbers: 080100, 080110, 081100, 081110, 081102, 081112 and 081120. The use of any other block requires the approval of SBIP.
3.9.4.5 Approval - The use of any other block requires the approval of SBIP.
3.9.4.6 Sleeves - or bushings may be used providing the original OEM (GM) lifter bore location is not changed.
3.9.4.7 Pushrods - must ride in the center of the lifter. (no offset lifters)
3.9.5 INTERNAL COMPONENTS:
3.9.5.1 Materials - Crankshaft, connecting rods, pushrods and wrist pins must be made of steel. Titanium or other materials not allowed.
3.9.5.2 Single plane crankshafts - are not allowed. Crankshaft throws must be timed in accordance with OEM specifications. Crankshaft limited to a maximum 4” stroke.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 24 of 55
3.9.6 HEADS:
3.9.6.1 Approved cylinder head - is big block Chevrolet Brodix – 2 PLUS. Only the approved aluminum cylinder heads allowed with OEM specifications.
3.9.7 Valve Work –
3.9.7.1 Spec cylinder head serial numbers - must remain on the head and may not be defaced or altered.
3.9.8 Modifications/Repairs –
3.9.8.1 Using offset head guides or altering the stock mounting location of the head on the cylinder block is not allowed.
3.9.8.2 No welding modifications are allowed to the original head castings. Heads must be returned to Brodix for repair. All repairs will be certified in writing to the SBIP.
3.10 INTAKE MANIFOLD:
3.10.2 Carburetor spacers - or adapters are allowed, maximum of 2.5" between the bottom of the carburetor and the top of the manifold is allowed.
3.10.3 Any stock cast intake manifold. The manifold may be port matched up to 1 ½ inches to match cylinder heads. No fabricated or tunnel ram type manifolds may be used.
3.11 INDUCTION SYSTEM:
3.11.1 Approved Fuel – 91-93 Octane no fuel additives
3.11.1.1 Number - Only one carburetor is allowed per engine.
3.11.1.2 Approved Carburetors - Any Holley Dominator style carburetor is allowed.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 25 of 55
3.11.1.3 Source - Carburetors may be purchased from any source.
3.11.1.4 Fuel injection - is not allowed.
3.12 EXHAUST SYSTEM:
3.12.1 Runner Length/Materials - Exhaust manifolds may be cast or fabricated with no more than 15-1/2" (inches) of individual primary runner length measured at the centerline of any runner from the cylinder head port to the common collector. The overall length includes any gaskets, adapters, or wedges from the exhaust ports to the common exhaust collector. No modifications to the exhaust that increases runner length or give the effect of longer individual runners are allowed. This includes but is not limited to merge collectors, divider plates or turbulence cones. The stock Mercury style 525 CMI header is permitted.
3.12.2 Shape - Any non-divided (common collector), round, square, rectangular or oval, elbow, riser or tail pipe is allowed. The engine exhaust manifolds and pipes from engine outlet to point of exit from hull or deck must be water-cooled by water jackets. The exit from the hull or deck must be located in such a position whereby exhaust fumes cannot affect the crew.
3.13 TRANSMISSIONS:
3.13.1 General: All boats competing in the SUPERBOAT™ class must have propulsion systems capable of turning the propellers in either direction or maintaining a neutral (standstill) state while the engine is running.
3.13.2 Single speed – transmissions / crash boxes capable of forward, neutral and reverse are allowed.
3.13.3 Multi speed - transmissions are not allowed.
3.14 LUBRICATION (ENGINE):
3.14.1 Wet sump - and internal oil pumps are allowed.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 26 of 55
3.14.2 Dry Sump - External oil pumps or dry sump systems are allowed, however, a maximum of three scavenging pump sections allowed on dry sump systems.
3.14.3 Intake valley – must remain as cast with NO alterations to prevent oil flow from the valley to the crankcase. No raised sections may be attached or formed with any material around oil drain openings in the intake valley. No “damming” or collecting of oil by any means is allowed in the intake valley.
3.15 IGNITION:
3.15.1 Distributor - must remain in factory delivered location.
3.15.2 Electronic ignitions – Engines are required to use the MSD Digital ignition system with 7000 RPM limiter.
3.15.3 Crank triggered and belt drive ignitions - are not allowed.
3.15.4 Coils - Ignition systems are limited to one (1) ignition coil. Individual ignition coils per cylinder are not allowed.
3.15.5 Back up ignition systems – Are Not Allowed.
3.15.6 Spark - must be distributed via distributor rotor and cap.
3.16 ENGINE SUPPLIER -
3.16.1 SBIP also will allow multiple engine builders to supply engines that meet the SUPERBOAT™ engine specification.
3.16.2 The goals of the SUPERBOAT™ spec engine program are to:
3.16.2.1 Increase competitive balance throughout the fleet
3.16.2.2 Develop a “5 race engine”
3.16.2.3 Reduce maintenance and operating costs for the majority of the teams during an entire season
Whether it's a 525 or a superboat 510CID, if a competitor is going to cheat it will be difficult to police without tearing down motors.
3.9 ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS –
The SUPERBOAT 510 CID Engine will be the only engine approved for the SUPERBOAT CLASS
3.9.1 DISPLACEMENT: Maximum 510 CID, minimum 495 CID per engine, (1020 CID total) with a maximum 4” stroke crankshaft.
3.9.2 COMPRESSION RATIO: The maximum compression ratio allowed is 9.5:1 measured by whistler device calibrated at race site with master cylinder.
3.9.3 VALVE SYSTEM:
3.9.3.1 Number - Two valves per cylinder operated via pushrods.
3.9.3.2 Maximum gross cam lift - measured at the valve is .720 inch with zero lash.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 23 of 55
3.9.3.3 Variable cam timing - is not allowed.
3.9.4 BLOCK:
3.9.4.1 Cast iron - must be approved by SBIP.
3.9.4.2 Chevrolet - design blocks with 9.8" or 10.2" deck heights are approved.
3.9.4.3 Chevrolet - design blocks manufactured by General Motors and World Products (Merlin) are approved. The following part numbers are approved.
3.9.4.4 GM part numbers - 10185049, 10134367, 24502502, 24502500, 12370834, 14044808, 12370833, 10051106, 10237292. World Products (Merlin) part numbers: 080100, 080110, 081100, 081110, 081102, 081112 and 081120. The use of any other block requires the approval of SBIP.
3.9.4.5 Approval - The use of any other block requires the approval of SBIP.
3.9.4.6 Sleeves - or bushings may be used providing the original OEM (GM) lifter bore location is not changed.
3.9.4.7 Pushrods - must ride in the center of the lifter. (no offset lifters)
3.9.5 INTERNAL COMPONENTS:
3.9.5.1 Materials - Crankshaft, connecting rods, pushrods and wrist pins must be made of steel. Titanium or other materials not allowed.
3.9.5.2 Single plane crankshafts - are not allowed. Crankshaft throws must be timed in accordance with OEM specifications. Crankshaft limited to a maximum 4” stroke.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 24 of 55
3.9.6 HEADS:
3.9.6.1 Approved cylinder head - is big block Chevrolet Brodix – 2 PLUS. Only the approved aluminum cylinder heads allowed with OEM specifications.
3.9.7 Valve Work –
3.9.7.1 Spec cylinder head serial numbers - must remain on the head and may not be defaced or altered.
3.9.8 Modifications/Repairs –
3.9.8.1 Using offset head guides or altering the stock mounting location of the head on the cylinder block is not allowed.
3.9.8.2 No welding modifications are allowed to the original head castings. Heads must be returned to Brodix for repair. All repairs will be certified in writing to the SBIP.
3.10 INTAKE MANIFOLD:
3.10.2 Carburetor spacers - or adapters are allowed, maximum of 2.5" between the bottom of the carburetor and the top of the manifold is allowed.
3.10.3 Any stock cast intake manifold. The manifold may be port matched up to 1 ½ inches to match cylinder heads. No fabricated or tunnel ram type manifolds may be used.
3.11 INDUCTION SYSTEM:
3.11.1 Approved Fuel – 91-93 Octane no fuel additives
3.11.1.1 Number - Only one carburetor is allowed per engine.
3.11.1.2 Approved Carburetors - Any Holley Dominator style carburetor is allowed.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 25 of 55
3.11.1.3 Source - Carburetors may be purchased from any source.
3.11.1.4 Fuel injection - is not allowed.
3.12 EXHAUST SYSTEM:
3.12.1 Runner Length/Materials - Exhaust manifolds may be cast or fabricated with no more than 15-1/2" (inches) of individual primary runner length measured at the centerline of any runner from the cylinder head port to the common collector. The overall length includes any gaskets, adapters, or wedges from the exhaust ports to the common exhaust collector. No modifications to the exhaust that increases runner length or give the effect of longer individual runners are allowed. This includes but is not limited to merge collectors, divider plates or turbulence cones. The stock Mercury style 525 CMI header is permitted.
3.12.2 Shape - Any non-divided (common collector), round, square, rectangular or oval, elbow, riser or tail pipe is allowed. The engine exhaust manifolds and pipes from engine outlet to point of exit from hull or deck must be water-cooled by water jackets. The exit from the hull or deck must be located in such a position whereby exhaust fumes cannot affect the crew.
3.13 TRANSMISSIONS:
3.13.1 General: All boats competing in the SUPERBOAT™ class must have propulsion systems capable of turning the propellers in either direction or maintaining a neutral (standstill) state while the engine is running.
3.13.2 Single speed – transmissions / crash boxes capable of forward, neutral and reverse are allowed.
3.13.3 Multi speed - transmissions are not allowed.
3.14 LUBRICATION (ENGINE):
3.14.1 Wet sump - and internal oil pumps are allowed.
2013 Technical Rulebook Updated February 27, 2013 Page 26 of 55
3.14.2 Dry Sump - External oil pumps or dry sump systems are allowed, however, a maximum of three scavenging pump sections allowed on dry sump systems.
3.14.3 Intake valley – must remain as cast with NO alterations to prevent oil flow from the valley to the crankcase. No raised sections may be attached or formed with any material around oil drain openings in the intake valley. No “damming” or collecting of oil by any means is allowed in the intake valley.
3.15 IGNITION:
3.15.1 Distributor - must remain in factory delivered location.
3.15.2 Electronic ignitions – Engines are required to use the MSD Digital ignition system with 7000 RPM limiter.
3.15.3 Crank triggered and belt drive ignitions - are not allowed.
3.15.4 Coils - Ignition systems are limited to one (1) ignition coil. Individual ignition coils per cylinder are not allowed.
3.15.5 Back up ignition systems – Are Not Allowed.
3.15.6 Spark - must be distributed via distributor rotor and cap.
3.16 ENGINE SUPPLIER -
3.16.1 SBIP also will allow multiple engine builders to supply engines that meet the SUPERBOAT™ engine specification.
3.16.2 The goals of the SUPERBOAT™ spec engine program are to:
3.16.2.1 Increase competitive balance throughout the fleet
3.16.2.2 Develop a “5 race engine”
3.16.2.3 Reduce maintenance and operating costs for the majority of the teams during an entire season
XtremeRacing
Competitor
There you go....something very simalar could be done at a reasonable price. The builders I've spoken to also said you can convert your 525 for a reasonible price if that is the direction you wanted to go so you DON'T have to buy a new motor. The key is then you have a simple way to tech the motor, you can raise or lower RPM very easily, or use a restrictor plate pretty simply. This also allows you to help a slower team by raising their RPM's, we have always talked about that. The weight thing doesnt work. We have tried it for yrs, it's old school, been there and done that. Seems like we all want to stick to things that have been tried and proven not to work. Also, it is not safe to load a team up with too much weight and that's what it takes to really make a differeance. The New package would do away with the secret magic Merc box, that seems to be the big issue with some of the teams as far as RPM's. To believe that a sealed motor has a box that is set where it should be is crazy. I know that isnt true for a fact and can't be checked. I dont think Nascar would allow something that a Nascar tech couldn't not tech other then a teams word or some seals you can buy at 7-11 and can't be checked. Or say to a team, rev your engine and lets see your RPMs, Lol. You would think we would learn from what we did in the past that didn't work. Everyone talks about the old F1/F2 days and how great it was, but all I would hear is god damn that boat has a Reggie motor so you tell me what did that mean. I guess it didn't have to be checked because it had Merc/Reggie seals on to. Here we are 10 yrs later trying to do the same thing again...why? The worst part is if you do send your motor to Merc and spend the $10,000 when u get it back the next week you send your box to Dustin and go race, am I missing something here?? Not saying I have all the answer but I know for sure what doesn't work. I raced F1 for 6 yrs and seen it all. It was a joke what some teams were doing, with even multiple boxes in their boats. I don't know a team back in the day that didnt have a tool box full of seals.
Doesn't get much simplar than MSD and being able to read the RPM's on the chip itself . Like i said the big thing isn't just reading it but the ease of techs changing it and creating parity pretty easy. We even tried drive height and that doesnt work because most of the teams found they are running better even lower then the 1/2 " that the rule book calls for. Most of them now are running 1" below. But we tried and learned and move on, but learning from it is important.
Make no mistake when we had the conferance call a few yrs ago and there was 8 teams on the call we all agreed that it would be great to run the same RPM, but 6 of the 8 teams would only do that if there was a way to check the RPM. Three teams including myself said they would work on that, and we all did and not one of us could get something to work properly to this day. Matter of fact the Absolutely Not boat still has a reader on it and it doesnt work even after working with the manufactor for months. Also just so everyone is clear all of this is over 150 RPM the motor only pulls to 5600 before the HP falls off and thats fact I have Dyno sheets to prove it. Also all these number of 700-800 HP is BS again do your home work we have.
Doesn't get much simplar than MSD and being able to read the RPM's on the chip itself . Like i said the big thing isn't just reading it but the ease of techs changing it and creating parity pretty easy. We even tried drive height and that doesnt work because most of the teams found they are running better even lower then the 1/2 " that the rule book calls for. Most of them now are running 1" below. But we tried and learned and move on, but learning from it is important.
Make no mistake when we had the conferance call a few yrs ago and there was 8 teams on the call we all agreed that it would be great to run the same RPM, but 6 of the 8 teams would only do that if there was a way to check the RPM. Three teams including myself said they would work on that, and we all did and not one of us could get something to work properly to this day. Matter of fact the Absolutely Not boat still has a reader on it and it doesnt work even after working with the manufactor for months. Also just so everyone is clear all of this is over 150 RPM the motor only pulls to 5600 before the HP falls off and thats fact I have Dyno sheets to prove it. Also all these number of 700-800 HP is BS again do your home work we have.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
The only thing I know of you're missing is that a certified Merc dealer/mech can read the RPM on a Merc motor with their software on a simple plugin like you are talking about on the MSD.
I do know several of the teams, including yourself are trying to make it so you can make the max rpm and parity work without motor tear-down. My thought, don't quit trying. I believe it is a lot closer than some have thought......
Like you say, whistle, P&G, and max RPM are the base issues.
One question, the seals from merc have numbers that match the motor, head, etc seal numbers. How did the teams duplicate that issue? I do know that in Cat Lite they replaced the boxes at the race site in OSS. Did that happen in any other classes in any other orgs?
One more, on the MSD box in Superboat , do you supply the chip at the race site? Or, if not, how do you read the maximum RPM during the contest after the race?
I do know several of the teams, including yourself are trying to make it so you can make the max rpm and parity work without motor tear-down. My thought, don't quit trying. I believe it is a lot closer than some have thought......
Like you say, whistle, P&G, and max RPM are the base issues.
One question, the seals from merc have numbers that match the motor, head, etc seal numbers. How did the teams duplicate that issue? I do know that in Cat Lite they replaced the boxes at the race site in OSS. Did that happen in any other classes in any other orgs?
One more, on the MSD box in Superboat , do you supply the chip at the race site? Or, if not, how do you read the maximum RPM during the contest after the race?
XtremeRacing
Competitor
The RPM's right on the chips and yes very simple to read the chips.
Don't know of any spec. class other then SVL in OPA that r running spec sealed Mercs. The few SCL that are still run I believe aren't running spec sealed motors, but you would have to ask them. I know the last yr they ran SBI they did away with it are had the same rules as we do now in SV.
Don't know of any spec. class other then SVL in OPA that r running spec sealed Mercs. The few SCL that are still run I believe aren't running spec sealed motors, but you would have to ask them. I know the last yr they ran SBI they did away with it are had the same rules as we do now in SV.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Awesome by your last post I see we agree what teams will try and fudge the system. With that said I guess we both agress teams are doing that now. So now that we are straight with that, I have a question for you, what Org. is checking boxes RIGHT NOW for RPM?? Thats kind of an easy one NO ONE so if know teams are fudging now and not being caught thats why changes need to be made.
To answer your question there is numerous way to control the chips. The last conferance call SBI had we discussed a few , and the easiest is to seal the hatches at the crane and after the race the inspectors will brake the seals and inspect the chips pretty simple . What you race is what will be inspected. We have 2000 tie wrap seals with random 6 digit number on them.
This of course is just your opinion !!!!!!
There are 8 other boats racing in OPA this year that think different. So what you are saying is that you know better than 8 other boats in SVL. Just so you know its insulting to call us all crazy. How many boats does SBI have in SVL? Is the class growing? Why keep trashing what OPA SVL is doing? Post your rules and see who shows to your races.
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Sounds like a good start....
So the SV's will have a 7000 chip also? Or they will be back to the 5400/5600 like the stock Merc and Vortecs are?
XtremeRacing
Competitor
The class can decide, and we'll see what the motor builder suggest. I think 5600 will be the magic number.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Randy I didn't say anything about you being crazy. I did say it was crazy to pay Merc $10,000 for a rebuild when it can be done for much less. But if you are good with it go for it.... I like to spend my money a little wiser. Also don't think I ever mentioned OPA, Paul asked a questuin I told him why we arent all using the same rules. If u remember there were 8 teams on the SBI conference that u were on and they voted 6-2 againt sealed motors and set RPM u being one of the two for sealing so does that mean u knew bette?. Nothing I posted isn't the truth u may not like it but it is what it is. Of the teams u are talking about I have heard plenty from them not being so happy now that u bring it up. But that's no concern of mine just like u told Mark everyone can make thier own choices where to race.
Randy I'm not slaming anyone just facts, you have done pleanty of your own SBI bashing so please dont even go there ....You go on about 700hp, motors not lasting, ect so please dont make me go back and pull all those threads. None of that matters, seems like u want to stir the pot instead of posting ways it better the sport. There was a good conversation going on and good questions back and forth and here comes Randy.
To answer your question there are 7 teams that seem OK with SBI SV rules so I guess you know better, or was that just your Opion??? Matter of a fact there was 9 different boats that raced SBI last yr.
Randy I'm not slaming anyone just facts, you have done pleanty of your own SBI bashing so please dont even go there ....You go on about 700hp, motors not lasting, ect so please dont make me go back and pull all those threads. None of that matters, seems like u want to stir the pot instead of posting ways it better the sport. There was a good conversation going on and good questions back and forth and here comes Randy.
To answer your question there are 7 teams that seem OK with SBI SV rules so I guess you know better, or was that just your Opion??? Matter of a fact there was 9 different boats that raced SBI last yr.
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Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
5600 would be a good number I believe.
So you're thinking;
510 Cu In max to allow for a .030 over re-bore of a 502(Documented/Tested by P&G),
9.0 to 1 compression max to allow for resurfacing heads (Whistled),
5600 RPM max (Chip reviewed after race in sealed compartment),
and no other engine parts can be modified in any way? No porting, polishing, modified camshafts, welding of ports, etc, etc?
Or will any cam/etc be allowed thinking that the 5600 rpm limit will be the equalizer?
So you're thinking;
510 Cu In max to allow for a .030 over re-bore of a 502(Documented/Tested by P&G),
9.0 to 1 compression max to allow for resurfacing heads (Whistled),
5600 RPM max (Chip reviewed after race in sealed compartment),
and no other engine parts can be modified in any way? No porting, polishing, modified camshafts, welding of ports, etc, etc?
Or will any cam/etc be allowed thinking that the 5600 rpm limit will be the equalizer?
XtremeRacing
Competitor
The builders would get together same as they did with the Superboat class and spec it out. Not sure just what it would be but I'm sure they have a good idea. I've spoke to Frank at Scorpion in great length.
F1-00 Racing
Competitor
Oh I know the answer to this, thats easy.... Its 0(zero) SBI has done away with the SVL class.
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Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
Funny guy.... It is a bit odd though. If you want to go that route, they changed the Super Vee class from twin engine Vees to single engine Vees between 28 and 32 feet long.
I really hope a true Twin Engine Vee (non-GPS) class comes back one of these days.
I really hope a true Twin Engine Vee (non-GPS) class comes back one of these days.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
One of the reason we change it was the fans,they would ask all the time what SVL meant ( APBA was Lite SBI was limited ). I dont really know myself not sure what Lite,or Limited meant. They would ask if it was liter then other boats, limited to speed ...Ect.
So with the rule changes it was a good time to change the class name.
So with the rule changes it was a good time to change the class name.
MOBILEMERCMAN
Founding Member / Competitor
There is a slow one and a very fast one. Those two belong in SBI where they can do what ever they want. They are both Champions and Winners.
The other racers are pretty much equal and have no reason to change to conform with the two odd ball boats.
Nothing ever really changes. A boat or two decides to do what they want and insist everyone else should conform to their way of thinking.
The other racers are pretty much equal and have no reason to change to conform with the two odd ball boats.
Nothing ever really changes. A boat or two decides to do what they want and insist everyone else should conform to their way of thinking.
XtremeRacing
Competitor
That not true thats a major point, SBI does have tech, and is monitored very closely. The changes have nothing to do with a few odd boats. We are POSSIBLE talking about motors not boats so not sure what a few odd boats have to do with that, if you remember corretly OSS was the one that opened that door in Biloxi for the odd boat .
Not sure how u can say the other racers are pretty much equal , when was the last time they were checked? RPMs, HP, Compression, Cubic Inch, drive height , or gear ratio. I know SBI could supply all that info. at anytime need be. I know for a fact a boat that raced with the others races that u meantioned not me and ran a different gear ratio and no one had a clue, or even thought about checking it.
Your statement about a boat or 2 changing things is also false, SBI classes vote on rule change and you can check with the other boats that you call them. They had their chance to be heard and vote, so please lets try and stay with the truth it hepls.
Dont want to go here but you brought it up. None of that matters , what Paul and I were talking about is something we r looking at for the futhure because sooner or later a change is going to have to be made . Nothing more nothing less.....
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XtremeRacing
Competitor
Some positive input or fresh idea's would be nice for a change, what a novel idea.....but no lets just keeping beating up on each other till we beat the sport to death....Thanks
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