Right Time for Cockpit Safety Review?

[Sean Stinson]

Well give me a call pal and lets coordinate!!!!

 

[audacity]

call me in a few...all the numbers that i have save recently got smoked.

 

[Sean Stinson]

Just left you a message!!!!

 

[T2x]

I was just surfing the net looking at safety equipment and things incorporated into boats to promote safety.....

One thing that has intrigued me for awhile now is the following:

S.B. SYSTEM
RETARDED FLOATING SYSTEM
MOD. 413 R

DAC, Burgess, Seebold, and others all have this incorporated into the top of the cockpit of their tunnel boats!!! I know an offshore cat is much larger and in a rolled over situation this alone isn't going to suffice, HOWEVER, if it could be scaled up to a larger version and go to a breakaway capsule scenario we might be going down a path that has some merit to it!!!!

Lets face it a high speed crash is going to scramble your brains and you are going to be disoriented for a period of time how long depends on the severity of the crash but with this thing floating your dumb ass in a position that will make rescue and recovery more accessible now we are talking critical time saved!!!!

Just a thought!!!!

For the record...Fabio Buzzi created a "breakaway" self contained, four man, floating cockpit for his 4 engine cat in 1989. It debuted at the Atlantic City Worlds. At that time it was thought to be "too expensive" and "restricting". Since then at least a few dozen people have been killed who would have been alive today had the technology been given a chance to develop.

Funny...it probably cost less than a current custom paint job.

This old wine in new bottles stuff has to stop. Pretty soon somebody will be inventing the non step monohull...for safer turning.

T2x

 

[Sean Stinson]

For the record...Fabio Buzzi created a "breakaway" self contained, four man, floating cockpit for his 4 engine cat in 1989. It debuted at the Atlantic City Worlds. At that time it was thought to be "too expensive" and "restricting". Since then at least a few dozen people have been killed who would have been alive today had the technology been given a chance to develop.

Funny...it probably cost less than a current custom paint job.

This old wine in new bottles stuff has to stop. Pretty soon somebody will be inventing the non step monohull...for safer turning.

T2x

And they told me it didn't exist and that I was nuts and crazy as well

 

[Ratickle]

Pretty soon somebody will be inventing the non step monohull...for safer turning.

T2x

Sounds like a good idea. But when they're done can they invent the step for straightaway speed?

 

[phragle]

THE HYDRALIC STEP! button in cockpit. push it and the the back half of the bottom raises creating a step., push it again, buttom lowers to a non step

 

[Ratickle]

THE HYDRALIC STEP! button in cockpit. push it and the the back half of the bottom raises creating a step., push it again, buttom lowers to a non step

They tried that on an aluminum offshore hull I think....

 

[phragle]

damn... and I was gonna grow my hair out to look like Reggie too..

 

[T2x]

Actually the only steps on a monohull that are worth a damn... help you to climb into the cockpit.

T2x

 

[Sean H]

T2x, any thoughts on the latest canopy incident?

 

[T2x]

T2x, any thoughts on the latest canopy incident?

I have seen very detailed pictures and discussed the incident with George Linder and Joe Imprescia. I am reserving opinion until I get a chance to talk to Vinnie Rifice and Peter Hledin.

I will say that this incident is taking us in a somewhat different direction than previous scenarios, and my take on it is very different from others I have heard. The variable nature of this accident makes the need for a high level study team even more necessary IMHO. We are definitely dealing with a serious and deadly moving target and a simple "one size fits all" solution will not work. This is another example where the "devil is in the details".

I thank God that the outcome was not more serious for both men. Vinnie is a good friend and I am thrilled that he is still with us.

T2x

 

[Ratickle]

I have seen very detailed pictures and discussed the incident with George Linder and Joe Imprescia. I am reserving opinion until I get a chance to talk to Vinnie Rifice and Peter Hledin.

I will say that this incident is taking us in a somewhat different direction than previous scenarios, and my take on it is very different from others I have heard. The variable nature of this accident makes the need for a high level study team even more necessary IMHO. We are definitely dealing with a serious and deadly moving target and a simple "one size fits all" solution will not work. This is another example where the "devil is in the details".

I thank God that the outcome was not more serious for both men. Vinnie is a good friend and I am thrilled that he is still with us.

T2x

I just hope everyone one continues to discuss improvements. These guys are very important to all of us. I can't think of a better group to discuss improvements than those participating on this thread and those mentioned in this thread.

 

[glassdave]

I have seen very detailed pictures and discussed the incident with George Linder and Joe Imprescia. I am reserving opinion until I get a chance to talk to Vinnie Rifice and Peter Hledin.

I will say that this incident is taking us in a somewhat different direction than previous scenarios, and my take on it is very different from others I have heard. The variable nature of this accident makes the need for a high level study team even more necessary IMHO. We are definitely dealing with a serious and deadly moving target and a simple "one size fits all" solution will not work. This is another example where the "devil is in the details".

I thank God that the outcome was not more serious for both men. Vinnie is a good friend and I am thrilled that he is still with us.

T2x

My heart stopped when i saw the boat get towed in and the lexan was out of it as well as the hatch. Glad those guys walked away i consider them friends as well.

Rich can you explain this method for mounting lexan? I have seen it in the past as well as in the Linder guidlines. I am having trouble understanding the concept. It looks to me that when you recess the hole for the first step of the insert you also take away half of the actual materiel as well as the smallest hole at the base is large enough to let the head of the screw pull through if the cup shears. You only have a small shear area at the base of the cup where the head of the screw fits in. Is this method being superseded in favor of a wide flange and mask?

This is from an F-16 canopy on a Skater i have in my shop.

 

[T2x]

Rich can you explain this method for mounting lexan?.

1. No I cannot. The newest guidelines call for countersinking to allow a grommet and a larger washer to recess into the material to avoid cracking the surface layer upon impact. But, more importantly, the Texstar/Milspec calls for fasteners to be mounted on 2" centers (no more than 3" will work properly).... On the other hand is this an older race boat or a pleasure boat with quarter canopies? Many things have changed over the years and the quarter canopies were never intended as safety devices....or shouldn't be.

2. It is not Lexan..it is Polycarbonate...big difference

One BIG point to remember........ The canopy material flexes during impact......so.......if a major blow hits the center of a windscreen it will become concave and pull all of the edges inward. If the mounting lips are not wide enough or the fasteners too widely spaced the material can easily break away from its anchors and slip inside the frame during this action. The remedy is minimum 3" wide flanges made of at least 1" thickness of structural glass (I believe these should be on the inside and outside surfaces...but that's just silly ol' me)...... and fasteners on 2-3" centers.... to avoid any movement during impact. The material is strong enough to withstand amazing forces, but its very flexibility makes it somewhat like jello to control....you have to hem it in on all sides.

and again...the smaller the window the lower the forces exerted on the surface.......

There is also a completely different dynamic to consider...the build up of pressure behind the windows if the cockpit is breached........ This is a VERY important and little understood issue that requires some form of a "popoff" mechanism lest the occupants become exposed to massive internal organ and head pressures.

T2x

 

[glassdave]

Thanks Rich i have always been curious of that fastener and yes this is an old race boat. Its the Snakeman racing triple outboard 36, got any history on it? Its in great shape, i am painting it and doing some glass work for the new owner.

I have seen the wide washer type on some of the newer boats but noticed Peter still uses these and wondered if there was some reason.

I thought it was polycarbonate it was just easier to type lexan

 

[Sean Stinson]

Until something is put in place...IE a team...The potential for a catastrophic failure is imminent!!!! It's not if it will but when it will happen!!!!

 

[T2x]

Thanks Rich i have always been curious of that fastener and yes this is an old race boat. Its the Snakeman racing triple outboard 36, got any history on it? Its in great shape, i am painting it and doing some glass work for the new owner.

I have seen the wide washer type on some of the newer boats but noticed Peter still uses these and wondered if there was some reason.

I thought it was polycarbonate it was just easier to type lexan

Those fasteners are the Texstar/Milspec grommets and they work perfectly on an F-16. Lately, George has been recommending a washer (rubber backed if possible) to spread the loads over a larger surface, but the 2"-3" bolt centers standard have not changed since 1985. The simple fact is that each additional fastener set adds weight and costs money to purchase and install. If that becomes a consideration over safety the owner needs to re assess his or her values. IMHO.

T2x

 

[glassdave]

nope, racing days are done for this boat. The new owner is going to enjoy it for what it is. I wasnt aware they actually used these on the F-16 (the fastener that is). I actually thought it was developed by Textar for using the canopys on other things. Like i said i have always just been curious about it. thanks

 

[skaterdave]

i am looking for realistic ideas/input that can be implemented right now, in our current build, for little or NO money that will increase the safety of team jbs racing. as well as ideas that will allow teams to upgrade their personal safety as well.

thanks![/QUOTE]

yea this makes sense

so hows that putting safety first?????