Sean Stinson
Founding Member/Contributor
After a few people journey to the next life I think the racers or orgs may tend to rethink the dire need for this implementation to be put into effect!!!!
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Right Time for Cockpit Safety Review?
- Thread starter Ratickle
- Start date
After a few people journey to the next life I think the racers or orgs may tend to rethink the dire need for this implementation to be put into effect!!!!
SteveDavid
Icon / Competitor
UIM has a safety committee chaired by Bob Wartinger, himself a holder of over 55 world records. Put Bob, Rich Luhrs, George Linder, Ron Jones Sr. someone from the Victory program, Peter Hleden (Skater) Mystic, someone from APBA, OSS and OPA in a room for 2days and you'd come out with a universally adopted standard.
For those that say boat counts would drop, just keep on the way you are and we'll kill them off anyway.
We faced the same issues in 92 when I served as SR VP of APBA and later it's president. When we mandated safety cells and canopies in our hydo classes threats of abanondment were rampant. Now some 17 years later, every hydro class has uniform rules. God knows how many lives were saved, and boat counts are holding pretty well.
Besides crashing several times in Unlimiteds (in a safety cell and canopy (I blewover another 4 times in 1 Litre hydros, 2.5 hydros, and 7 Litre hydros at speed between 85 and 155 and rolled the Citgo Supergarrd at San Diego in 2000 at about 100 MPH (safety cell and canopy). All of the limited Hydro accidents were in open cockpits. Every morning I can't believe how stupid I was in an open cockpit. Getting out of bed is a couple of minutes process. I, like all racers would continue to be stupid until rules prevent us from being stupid. Death also has a way of stopping our stupidity.....
We don't need University studies, theoretical research etc. after 100 plus 180 MPH crashes in Unlimiteds we have the empirical evidence to prove what works and what doesn't. The Victory team and UIM has similar empirical and pragmatic evidence. The visibility issue has been reduced. (keep in mind in Unlimiteds we race against 6 others at a time 10 feet from each other and we've had few collisions that were not intentional... We're about 32 feet long, almost 15 feet wide and 6,800 lps +/-. The rescue concern of safety cell/canopy extraction in Offshore boats has been reduced by moving to reduced courses of 7 miles or so and private rescue helos and dive teams.
One meeting, two days, the right people, egos checked at the door, and this challenge would be resolved to the extent human minds can at this point in time.
Sean, Joey and others who've left messages, sorry I didn't get back to you, we're at the close of Florida's Legislative session and I'm in Tallahassee protecting some clients.....
Sean, dinner when you're in Davie sounds great.
Steve
For those that say boat counts would drop, just keep on the way you are and we'll kill them off anyway.
We faced the same issues in 92 when I served as SR VP of APBA and later it's president. When we mandated safety cells and canopies in our hydo classes threats of abanondment were rampant. Now some 17 years later, every hydro class has uniform rules. God knows how many lives were saved, and boat counts are holding pretty well.
Besides crashing several times in Unlimiteds (in a safety cell and canopy (I blewover another 4 times in 1 Litre hydros, 2.5 hydros, and 7 Litre hydros at speed between 85 and 155 and rolled the Citgo Supergarrd at San Diego in 2000 at about 100 MPH (safety cell and canopy). All of the limited Hydro accidents were in open cockpits. Every morning I can't believe how stupid I was in an open cockpit. Getting out of bed is a couple of minutes process. I, like all racers would continue to be stupid until rules prevent us from being stupid. Death also has a way of stopping our stupidity.....
We don't need University studies, theoretical research etc. after 100 plus 180 MPH crashes in Unlimiteds we have the empirical evidence to prove what works and what doesn't. The Victory team and UIM has similar empirical and pragmatic evidence. The visibility issue has been reduced. (keep in mind in Unlimiteds we race against 6 others at a time 10 feet from each other and we've had few collisions that were not intentional... We're about 32 feet long, almost 15 feet wide and 6,800 lps +/-. The rescue concern of safety cell/canopy extraction in Offshore boats has been reduced by moving to reduced courses of 7 miles or so and private rescue helos and dive teams.
One meeting, two days, the right people, egos checked at the door, and this challenge would be resolved to the extent human minds can at this point in time.
Sean, Joey and others who've left messages, sorry I didn't get back to you, we're at the close of Florida's Legislative session and I'm in Tallahassee protecting some clients.....
Sean, dinner when you're in Davie sounds great.
Steve
audacity
Competitor
You have a few inherent issues dealing with offshore race boats:
1. they are very expensive to build for the manufactures. safety testing is not built into the price.
2. when testing the canopy it needs to be done as a system and with water. this would be a massive cost no one(company or person) would be willing to cover.
3. surface area on a offshore boat is larger than any other race boat.
4. offshore powerboats are semi-designed to become pleasure boats after its days of racing are done.
what can be done that will help that no one can debate?
1. reduce surface area on the canopy! sounds easy enough right. John Cosker at Mystic has agreed to do this for us. our seat placement has to be established first then the canopy completed so our vision is not reduced. the closer you sit, the less the area has to be.
2. the interior must be built so that structure is not compromised.
3. there is no way a gauge, dash panel, or any electronic gear should be mounted so that water will have access to it if the hull is breached outside your cockpit. nothing like having your pressure gauge for your air tank(s) becoming a missile!
there are many things that i have seen over the years. they will all be incorporated in the new JBS Racing Mystic! any racer looking to add to solving our safety concerns please contact me directly.
1. they are very expensive to build for the manufactures. safety testing is not built into the price.
2. when testing the canopy it needs to be done as a system and with water. this would be a massive cost no one(company or person) would be willing to cover.
3. surface area on a offshore boat is larger than any other race boat.
4. offshore powerboats are semi-designed to become pleasure boats after its days of racing are done.
what can be done that will help that no one can debate?
1. reduce surface area on the canopy! sounds easy enough right. John Cosker at Mystic has agreed to do this for us. our seat placement has to be established first then the canopy completed so our vision is not reduced. the closer you sit, the less the area has to be.
2. the interior must be built so that structure is not compromised.
3. there is no way a gauge, dash panel, or any electronic gear should be mounted so that water will have access to it if the hull is breached outside your cockpit. nothing like having your pressure gauge for your air tank(s) becoming a missile!
there are many things that i have seen over the years. they will all be incorporated in the new JBS Racing Mystic! any racer looking to add to solving our safety concerns please contact me directly.
Sean Stinson
Founding Member/Contributor
You have some valid points Joe....I, however, disagree with one statement!! Although it's very true taking away from the integrity of a cockpit in the event it may become a pleasure boat one day is not something that needs to be practiced a race boat is meant to race and should be designed for a catastrophic accident to occur because usually the following statement will apply....."It isn't a matter of if it will happen, It's a matter of when it will happen!!!".......and if your racing career entitles you to remain a member of the dry club all the way through it....God Bless You!!!!
Sean Stinson
Founding Member/Contributor
Maybe the cockpit should use the Indy Car, Formula 1 model and have a seperate tub built and added to the boat so it is a sealed compartment that everything begins to break away from it leaving it to be it's own sealed entity the more catastrophic the accident becomes. Also energy will be dissipated through the hull breaking apart instead of the cockpit!!!!!
T2x
Icon/Charter Member
A little update on that...and history lesson.
Following the bird strike results and disasters in planes of the Corsair's era, the military mandated that all canopies be constructed to resist a bird strike at 500+ mph. As a result the newer canopies are laminated with two thin outer layers of acryllic (for finish and clarity only) bonded to a thick middle layer of Polycarbonate (for strength and flexibility). These are the canopies (F-16 Fighter Jet) that started the race boat cockpit revolution. They were originally used by the Unlimited hydro guys (1985)and quickly migrated to Offshore (1987). In subsequent years much was learned about them by both the government and the racing community. As a result the mil spec increased in thickness from 5/8" to 3/4" and beyond in various applications. The canopies must also be mounted in a very specific way for boating applications. Roll bars have also been added to strengthen the very flexible single and double wide clear canopy installations.
Since then many canopy systems have been developed but the laminated Acryllic/Polycarbonate material is still considered the benchmark for strength and durability for either full canopies or as window inserts in the structural canopies. One more very important point...all of the current materials degrade over time as a result of exposure to UV and infrared rays (sunlight). Both strength and flexibility deteriorate from this...so old or used canopies in most cases are basically worthless and in some cases dangerous.
In recent years we have seen that mounting and support issues have become increasingly critical and the consequences of even simple miscues and omissions have been fatal in nature. At present we have a state of the art that seems to work up to 150 mph or so when all current technologies are acquired, utilized properly and strictly and in place. In addition the Unlimited hydros with admittedly lesser forces to deal with have sustained life repeatedly in 175-200 mph accident scenarios, yet they have treated this with continual development and attention year in and year out in spite of previous "successes". Offshore racers and pleasure boaters have acted in the opposite manner with hatches removed, open cockpits and even life jackets abandoned on bikini clad passengers at speeds at and above 150 mph. The comparison is so dramatic as to be painful to the practiced eye or to those who have buried too many friends and team mates following accidents at far lessor speeds. As a result, emotions are high and deeply personal on this topic, even though emotion has no place in creating the current solutions and future development of safety technology and rules.
I endorse the concept of an ongoing, blue ribbon panel or addition to Bob Wartinger's existing group. I suggest shat Steve David be involved with this group, and I also suggest that George Linder, Fabio Buzzi, Peter Hledin, and Fred Hauenstein( very experienced, lost a brother to a racing accident and is a long time US representative to the UIM) be appointed as members.
Respectfully
T2x
T2x
Icon/Charter Member
Didn't your cockpit safety lighting system work? The cockpit standards since 1988 have mandated waterproof, automatic safety lighting because it is a well known fact among experienced racers and safety personnel, that internal visibility goes to near zero after a rollover, stuff, or submersion because of the radical change from bright daylight to underwater illumination. This "blindness" has caused panic and confusion among many survivors of accidents and has been addressed by most respected builders years ago.
T2x
audacity
Competitor
if this was not true then the manufactures would have two molds and the canopy and cockpit would be much much less in the race version.
i would love to hear SD's input on what we are doing with the new mystic. the external surface area is MUCH less on the canopy. the inside cockpit area is drastically reduced and structure is heavily increased.
my .02:every race boat should have 6 pt harnesses and not 5pt. 5pt are not even legal for much slower competitive racing any longer as they will sheer your organs. i cannot even imagine using a seat without head restraints.
audacity
Competitor
never seen a lighting system in a race boat. a white race boat cockpit upside down in 20 feet of water had plenty of light. actually an amazing amount! a flat black cockpit with water in it right side you cannot see your feet. as for "panic and confusion"...you should not be. if you are you should be spending more time in the dunker. maybe a dive class or two.
T2x
Icon/Charter Member
Interesting...I've seen quite a few...in offshore race boats.
Who knows, maybe a little experience is worth something?
T2x
MOBILEMERCMAN
Founding Member / Competitor
Yes, doing dunker tests regularly is a plus.
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audacity
Competitor
t2x...thanks for the idea. i am now investigating incorporating a light into our helmets. we are mounting a PTT buttons on our helmets. it's a problem when you can only communicate in your seat with your helmet on.
like i said our boat is littered with glow sticks...even on the outside for safety crew. something i don't see too often.
like i said our boat is littered with glow sticks...even on the outside for safety crew. something i don't see too often.
audacity
Competitor
thanks pop! please email me directly with your wish list. joey@jbsracing.com
just came up with an idea!!!! as some of you know i ice-climb and rock-climb...every year a book is published with all the documented accidents or close calls. the book is NOT thin! by reading it, you defiantly gain some experience.
just came up with an idea!!!! as some of you know i ice-climb and rock-climb...every year a book is published with all the documented accidents or close calls. the book is NOT thin! by reading it, you defiantly gain some experience.
T2x
Icon/Charter Member
The most common systems I have seen are the type used in airliners for floor lighting in case of fire or darkness...this is a sealed tubular continuous string that can be affixed to the floor and around the roll cage. You can use water sensitive automatic switches, mercury switches, or simply keep them on continuously with separate water sealed battery power. Remember ....do not use your main boat batteries as they are the first to go when under water events occur.
T2x
Icon/Charter Member
Having survived, like Steve David, many accidents, you have no idea what shape you or your team mate will be in after a high g, ballistic impact event. You may be semi conscious or in a dream state or simply blinded and confused. Many of our more wealthy owner drivers are not exactly Michael Schumacher to begin with, and I know of at least one top notch throttleman with years of racing experience who wound up terrified in a darkened, overturned cockpit while stuck against the floor under the dash. At times like that your capsule training does not solve your problem but visibility can be very helpful.
One other point about ballistics and g forces. This past weekend a friends 280 lb football playing nephew was killed in a tragic accident. He was driving an SUV, lost control and rolled it over. He was pitched out of the rear seat window on the far side........ This occurred at 45 mph. Do the math.
T2x
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