Popeye-La Tortuga 44' - The giants of the seventies

[T2x]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

100 mph in the early to mid 70's in an Offshore boat of that size would have been about 20 mph over the real speeds of the time. I think if you check the prop pitches, RPM's and gear ratios you might find that they won't add up to 100 mph... You will also find that the x dimensions were considerably lower than today's, resulting in a lot more drag.

To my knowledge no boats saw 100 mph at Lake X until 1980 or so...and they were cats. I know that Steve Stepp managed to get a small 32' Velocity vee over 100 at about the same time but that was a one shot deal, with almost empty tanks, and a light weight set up.

In 1981, my 94 mph Sport Class Shadow Cat could out run any open class vee bottom with plenty to spare...in calm water. (We held our own in the rough as well, but that's not my point)

If Brownie, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, et al have opposing points of view I will, obviously, listen with respect to their counterpoint, but barring that, I think that 100 mph in a monohull in that era is a bit of a stretch.

T2x

 

[FastDonzi]

in 82 (IIRC) Smitty and Ted Toleman set the open class speed record (in a cat) at about 94 mph. Had Fayva's little cat not polluted the country side it would have held the record at about 120 mph. Then everyone realized that the surface drive on a cat really worked, So they took the "Big" Fayva cat to lake X and made what is the very first standoff box for a mercruiser drive, although it took up the whole transom-It Worked, on that day it became the fastest class 1 boat to ever run on the lake. From there Danny Wiensteins Powerplay "S Class" cat was the 2nd (to have standoff boxes). from there the drive hights and speeds elevated to what you have today.

 

[CAL500]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

100 mph in the early to mid 70's in an Offshore boat of that size would have been about 20 mph over the real speeds of the time. I think if you check the prop pitches, RPM's and gear ratios you might find that they won't add up to 100 mph... You will also find that the x dimensions were considerably lower than today's, resulting in a lot more drag.

To my knowledge no boats saw 100 mph at Lake X until 1980 or so...and they were cats. I know that Steve Stepp managed to get a small 32' Velocity vee over 100 at about the same time but that was a one shot deal, with almost empty tanks, and a light weight set up.

In 1981, my 94 mph Sport Class Shadow Cat could out run any open class vee bottom with plenty to spare...in calm water. (We held our own in the rough as well, but that's not my point)

If Brownie, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, et al have opposing points of view I will, obviously, listen with respect to their counterpoint, but barring that, I think that 100 mph in a monohull in that era is a bit of a stretch.

T2x

heres my responce 1-1 / ssm3 / 4 blade props / 800 hp / 55oo rpm /turbo 496 cuin . I built freon intercoolers / single air reserch turbo with it s own oil pump,cooler . Later I used an over drive box 1.20-1 between the engine and the drive. i told my some of my ideas fred miller this and maybe also using a 2 speed gear spliter.these projects thought up by me were way ahead and not allowed APBA. In the 90 s mr Gentry ran 454 his turbo set in 2 and 3 engine boats rpm 6500 . check his speeds . I dont know what was tried at lak x but nothing they sold me would push my boat over 90.my 44 msv in Italy twin BPM s ssm3 over drive s in sardenia raced 1mile run with carlo bonomi near the yacht club offshorse,martini rossi 35 cig. our speed was 11 mph faster . bonomi s boat was champion that year. with me are flippo theodoli / mrs theodli/ enrico carimati/ mrs carimati/carlo and crew/and all the yacht club watching.they had a gentilemans bet going.I built more than one of these ,another with v12 bpm turbo. OTAM marine in porto fino installed the engines for me,and ran the sea trials. I designed the hull to run 150 mph on paper . NOTHING HAPPENED BY LUCK engineering is my training . I will explain my hull concept in anothere post later. sonny miller

 

[T2x]

in 82 (IIRC) Smitty and Ted Toleman set the open class speed record (in a cat) at about 94 mph. Had Fayva's little cat not polluted the country side it would have held the record at about 120 mph. Then everyone realized that the surface drive on a cat really worked, So they took the "Big" Fayva cat to lake X and made what is the very first standoff box for a mercruiser drive, although it took up the whole transom-It Worked, on that day it became the fastest class 1 boat to ever run on the lake. From there Danny Wiensteins Powerplay "S Class" cat was the 2nd (to have standoff boxes). from there the drive hights and speeds elevated to what you have today.

This is as I remember it as well. The drag issue was huge and when we took the original Shadows to Lake X, Schwebie fought us tooth and nail on the raised X dimensions...until he saw the speeds and handling. After that the rules changed throughout the sport. In truth, Arneson was working in the same direction. I will say that as I walked the pits and saw my first Cougar Cats in the late 70's, I was stunned at how low the drives were..... Since I was racing outboard tunnels at the time the drive depths looked ridiculous to me (In fact they were).

In any event....... if the big MSV's were not as fast as the smaller Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day in the U.S., and the faster hulls were running only 70-80 in 1974-75 (on a good day)....... How did the MSV's gain so much speed above the state of the art? Unfortunately with all of the data that Sonny provided above, I don't see drive height or prop pitch to do a slip analysis, nor do I know where he obtained 4 blade props in 1974.... (Perhaps Record/Rolla?)

As far as Sonny's claim regarding Tom Gentry running very well in the early 90's...I agree...but don't see the connection to this discussion. I will say that the first two speed gearboxes that actually worked were developed in the late 80's to early 90's on the Victory team's nickle as I recall...at about the same time as the ZF/Buzzi project.... Is Sonny saying that there were 2 speed transmissions in the MSV's in the 70's? If so what happened to them?

I was always fascinated by the MSV's because of their size and my affection for Bobby. He always was involved with neat stuff and our collaboration on El Boss was one of my favorite projects.


T2x

 

[CAL500]

This is as I remember it as well. The drag issue was huge and when we took the original Shadows to Lake X, Schwebie fought us tooth and nail on the raised X dimensions...until he saw the speeds and handling. After that the rules changed throughout the sport. In truth, Arneson was working in the same direction. I will say that as I walked the pits and saw my first Cougar Cats in the late 70's, I was stunned at how low the drives were..... Since I was racing outboard tunnels at the time the drive depths looked ridiculous to me (In fact they were).

In any event....... if the big MSV's were not as fast as the smaller Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day in the U.S., and the faster hulls were running only 70-80 in 1974-75 (on a good day)....... How did the MSV's gain so much speed above the state of the art? Unfortunately with all of the data that Sonny provided above, I don't see drive height or prop pitch to do a slip analysis, nor do I know where he obtained 4 blade props in 1974.... (Perhaps Record/Rolla?)

As far as Sonny's claim regarding Tom Gentry running very well in the early 90's...I agree...but don't see the connection to this discussion. I will say that the first two speed gearboxes that actually worked were developed in the late 80's to early 90's on the Victory team's nickle as I recall...at about the same time as the ZF/Buzzi project.... Is Sonny saying that there were 2 speed transmissions in the MSV's in the 70's? If so what happened to them?

I was always fascinated by the MSV's because of their size and my affection for Bobby. He always was involved with neat stuff and our collaboration on El Boss was one of my favorite projects.


T2x

the 44 la tortuga ran in the low 80 s,ask bob Sacceeti / 600hp merc s 74 rolla you guessed it.the v 12 bpm projects were in europe and so is rolla. The fast msv projects ran turbo gas in the 70 s and gentry ran gas turbo in the 90 s I spoke to fred in the 90 s about checking out the new 2 speeds out there. I think rules restricted us to 496 no open chamber head s . if you win they would pull your heads and look. we were a little slower then cigarettes in flat sea , the concept of this hull was to master bad sea conditions. at full throttle.the 38 msv s well against the all others halpern wins 2 championships using our hull. we all had the same engines at that time. sonny miller we also ran 4 blades on popeye cig /swebs/ lax 73

 

[olli]

I don't want to throw a wet blanket over anything in this thread....and I find it fascinating.....

But......

T2x

Please do not ruin this thread. BT reminded of beautiful boats and found the right member to answer all the questions. It is rare enough that you find people who were involved in interesting projects and who are willing to speak about them and to post some pics of all these almost forgotten things. I personally do not give a feck if these boats went 80, 100 or 105. It does not matter.
:cuss:

 

[Black Tornado]

44 msv in Italy twin BPM s ssm3 over drive s in sardenia raced 1mile run with carlo bonomi near the yacht club offshorse,martini rossi 35 cig. our speed was 11 mph faster . bonomi s boat was champion that year. with me are flippo theodoli / mrs theodli/ enrico carimati/ mrs carimati/carlo and crew/and all the yacht club watching.they had a gentilemans bet going.

Sonny do you remember in that context you and Bonomi were to challenge in Sardinia?
Race? Testing the boats? Martini Sponsorship party?
Bonomi was World Champ in 1973 and 1974.
In 1973 he didn't have the 35'. In 1974 e 1975 the 35' was left in USA.
In Sardinia the offshore races started in 1978.

 

[T2x]

Please do not ruin this thread. BT reminded of beautiful boats and found the right member to answer all the questions. It is rare enough that you find people who were involved in interesting projects and who are willing to speak about them and to post some pics of all these almost forgotten things. I personally do not give a feck if these boats went 80, 100 or 105. It does not matter.
:cuss:

There is no problem with this thread....or asking questions. That's how you learn the whole story. And by the way, I do a give a feck if these boats went 80 or 100 or 105. The issue is why and how.

T2x

 

[T2x]

Sonny do you remember in that context you and Bonomi were to challenge in Sardinia?
Race? Testing the boats? Martini Sponsorship party?
Bonomi was World Champ in 1973 and 1974.
In 1973 he didn't have the 35'. In 1974 e 1975 the 35' was left in USA.
In Sardinia the offshore races started in 1978.

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

 

[Top Banana]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

 

[Black Tornado]

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

Richie Powers.

 

[Top Banana]

Pruett went on to a new team back in the States that was just getting involved in offshore racing.

As a matter of fact, he even taught the wife of the owner of the team how to drive a "speed" boat. How did that turn out? The woman was none other than Betty Cook.

 

[CAL500]

Was Don Pruett with Bonomi at that time as well?

No Mr. Pruett

I'm not sure of the year, but Bonomi was already world champion. Theodli told me he saw women in Bonomi's boat during that short sprint race. Carimati's boat had his wife riding with him and some other person.
-Sonny CIAO

 

[CAL500]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

That boat is an early Msv also note that is has 3 strikes.

 

[T2x]

Pruett went on to a new team back in the States that was just getting involved in offshore racing.

As a matter of fact, he even taught the wife of the owner of the team how to drive a "speed" boat. How did that turn out? The woman was none other than Betty Cook.

That would be Paul Cook's KUDU, but I thought Pruett spent most of the 70's in Italy? Could he have been with Balistreri?

 

[Brownie]

The APBA UIM official speed record for Class 1 was 90.455 for years and years. Bob Nordskog in the 'Little Cigarette'. Nobody came close until Cougar in the 80's.

 

[Black Tornado]

Balestrieri's Mechanics

That would be Paul Cook's KUDU, but I thought Pruett spent most of the 70's in Italy? Could he have been with Balistreri?

Not in the 70's.
Pruett was with Balestrieri in the 1968 and in some races in 1969. Then he come back in USA.
Balestrieri replaced him with Jack Stuteville from 1970 to the 1973.
Then came Dave Wilson for the last two years of competitions of the Roman Champ in 1974 and 1975.

 

[DAREDEVIL]

Here is one of the old hull and decks still surviving.

The owner contacted me as the guy who sold it to him identified it as a "Banana Boat"

I think he said it measured out at 40 feet.

Did u buy it ?? NICE !!!!!!!!
1 more question,,,are banana boats and Advantage related ?

 

[Black Tornado]

Official World Speed Records

The APBA UIM official speed record for Class 1 was 90.455 for years and years. Bob Nordskog in the 'Little Cigarette'. Nobody came close until Cougar in the 80's.

A little precisation; in 'The Little Cigarette' were Hal Sahlman and Harold Smith to set the world record of speed in the 1974 at 87.2mph.
The boat was one of the former 32' Cigarette that Balestrieri modified in 1971 cutting it to 31' with a deck in playwood.
Nordskog set his two records in 1975 and 1976 with his Cigarette 35' Powerboat Magazine Special at 88.7mph and 90.6mph.
The first official record breaking the 100mph barrier was set in 1980 by a British lady - Countess of Arran - at Windermere the famous lake of the speed records driving her Skean Dhu a 26'.5 Wright Marine powered with a couple of Mercury 225hp outboards!
At 102.5mph.
Skean Dhu wasn't a traditional cat but it was a trimaran boat.

 

[Top Banana]

Did u buy it ?? NICE !!!!!!!!
1 more question,,,are banana boats and Advantage related ?

What is an Advantage??