Opinions ....let's hear them.

[Top Banana]

I started posting some old photos of the original Banana Boat factory in the Banana Boat co section here on Serious and some of the 24 footers we made over the years..... and it got me thinking about the future.

I would like to ask for some opinions from the Serious Offshore community, about the future of the 24 foot and 28 foot Banana Boats.

Is there a future for a 24 and 28 foot boats in the offshore world or should we focus more on the smaller sized boat world and offer them as a step up for them? Are we looking at the wrong market with offshore?

If there is a future, I would think that a whole new deck design is in order for both and I would appreciate your input on that.

The bottom is a traditional deep vee. We could make inserts for the hull molds for a step to pick up more speed if that would be necessary.

Should we keep the sport boat models or convert over to just center consoles?

If we keep the sport boat models should we just go with brackets / swim platforms and outboards or offer single sterndrives too?

How custom should we offer...right now we give the customer a blank sheet of paper and whatever they want, we make it happen.

Or should we just stop the smaller sizes and focus on the bigger size boats for the future?

Are we the last to still offer a smaller boat?

I appreciate and value your opinions and welcome any and all dialogue on this subject.

The boating world has changed since the day Don Aronow and I sat in his office and made the deal for the molds of the 24 Cigarette. What needs to be done for the future?

Thank you ahead of time for your thoughts.

Charlie

 

[fund razor]

With the economics of today, (we aren't in the boom of the 90's coupled with 1.20 a gallon gas) if I am going to get a 40 foot plus boat, it's going to be a second home. Not a "speedboat."
Meanwhile, I'll always have a 24-28 foot boat for fun running, and am open to sterndrives or outboards as a preferred dayboating vehicle on Lake Erie.
(I currently own a 28 apache)

I wouldn't buy a large offshore, regardless of ability. Maybe a Black Thunder... but otherwise, if it's bigger than 30 feet it's gonna be a cruiser.

 

[Ratickle]

Well, for sure the 28 has a place in the offshore world. The 24 is currently an unknown. It will be interesting to see how the new Defender comes out of Chief.

I think the biggest issue there is why buy a 24 of anything when the 28 is so close to the same price and neither one will go over the weight for most small tow vehicles, power vs performance is almost identical because of the new layup materials, and you actually have room in a cabin to spend the weekend.

The biggest selling boat in the current lineup at Outerlimits is the 29. The new boat coming out of Saber is the 28. The latest boats sold by Pantera has been their 28's.

As for blocking the hull to make a step, I would say it's a good thing not just for the top speed, but also for fuel efficiency. That is going to matter more and more. Speed is starting to take a backseat to usefulness. Hence the center console overtake of the offshore performance world. The big question with a step or two, can you make it safe for the average new boater out there? There is not a one of us here who have raced step and conventional Vee's who doesn't know what can happen in a split second with a step hull designed for top speed only. It is even more susceptible in a single outboard configuration. I have talked with numerous race drivers and they believe the P1 boat would be much safer with twin outboards than the current single. It seems like they roll or flip one every other race. I was just talking with Sean Stinson about the Fastech the other day and he was saying that step design was extremely forgiving in a corner. Same with the Chief as we know, and there are a couple other examples like the single step Phantom 30. But would those same designs work in a 28 or 33? You know the people to discuss that with better than I do. The fastest straightline Vee out there is also the most prone to spinouts and rollovers, happens way too often. Until the latest bottom modifications, it was a boat I always warned people about learning to drive through a corner from an expert before ever going on their own.

I do believe you would have to modify the deck. I think the raised deck on the black thunder is an incredible example of how to design a boat that looks "performance" good but has maximum headroom. The new Sunsation 43 is also a good example. Two boats that are out there going over 100 but no problem for spending the weekend on in style and comfort, and never a story of a spinout or flip.

The other thing about your hulls, the 24 would be a 26 for most manufacturers today because of the molded on swimplatform deal, and the 28 would be a 30. If you are pricing against those types of builders, it's something you'd have to consider.

I'll think some more. But, like Fund, my 24 is the most fun of all the boats I own and we've kept it because of that. The 28 to 30 bracket may be the best of all in the all-around single boat owner market.

 

[Buoy]

OK, since you're asking opinions...

Personally, the 24-28 is right for me.
When I was younger (20's-30's) I wanted a 35-40' offshore boat, but couldn't afford one (not many in that age range can). But 35-40' of boat is a lot to upkeep, storage is more expensive, even dockage is more expensive, requires a larger tow vehicle, and just in general it's a lot of work. But, at that age, I had the energy to do it but I didn't have the funds.

24-28 is towable by most trucks/SUV's today. Most people have room to store a 24-28 at home. My 24 (Pantera) fits in my garage (barely...). Even counties/HOA's have limits if you store outdoors (my last house limited up to 28' on a paved pad in the backyard).
Plus, with today's fuel prices...

I think the market is going to start picking up very soon, and I believe the 24-28' market is where it's going to go. Having something that can be reasonably an "overnighter" for a couple is a bonus.

As stated by others, if I were to buy anything larger than 30', it's gonna be a "water condo", 2nd boat. I put bottom paint on it, park it in a dock as a weekend home, and only leave dock a few times a year.

 

[Buoy]

Additional thoughts...

I'm not a fan of stepped hulls. Just seems to me that adding them, while it may increase top end, ask the customer "How often, and for how long are you going to run WOT"?
I'm guessing a truthful answer is 3-4 times a season, and 10-15 minutes.
I think with steps, more can go wrong than go right.
"If" you offered steps, the 28 might benefit, but on the 24... I don't think you'll see much benefit on a hull that size - but, I'm certainly not an authority on that topic.

Paul, to add to your list of "flying condos", put the 37' AT on that list. If you've ever been in one, it's a huge boat. Mike Sommers just picked his up last fall, and I'm sure he'll tell you it's a fast water condo.

 

[Flying Dutchman]

No steps, no cc don't change the deck. Your differentiation is heritage. Your customer is a "boater" or a yachtsman and has one, or more, boaters boats- a Hinkley, classic Hatteras, etc and probably something modern and over 70 feet as well. You offer an alternative to a wooden chris craft type of runabout this is not a first boat, this is a 10th boat, and one of many in the stable. In fact your target customer is probably considers themselves more of a sailor- In the sailing world you may call it "spirit of tradition". Full on teak and Chrome (teak decks!), yacht level of finish. No "livorsi offshore bling" Pretty much a new boat with new stock power that looks like the cigs and bananas in your old photos. Best of all you were part of the tradition and already carry the heritage. After awhile this becomes his go to boat, because of the ease of use vs. the "big boats" and sharp classy look-

 

[Top Banana]

Thank you to all that have responded, quite a variety of opinions there and that is just what I hoped for.

I understand the "Big" boat or cruiser concept while still owning a smaller fast boat.

These photos of my 38 Magnum Sport is what I used for going out to Nantucket or Block Island or Montauk for weekends.

It had big block gas engines. Laid up very light for a Magnum, it had two custom oval Italian portholes in the sides rather than the four square ones they used back then. The head was expanded so it had a full sit down shower. Cockpit was custom wrap around seats up front and the back was open with a horseshoe shaped couch around the stern area and up the sides. Bimini top over the forward section of the cockpit kept the sun off. I wanted it very simple. Easy to maintain and operate.

I had a customer years ago who had a 60 foot yacht and a 24 Banana sterndrive. He said if he was going out for less than 3 hours that day, he would jump in the Banana. If he was going out longer or staying over someplace, he took the bigger boat.

We offer a 9 foot cabin in the 24 Banana now. It starts right after the forward bulkhead and goes all the way to the cabin door buklhead. It has a large vee berth with porta potti underneath and two small sit down areas just inside the doorway. Maybe we could emphasize that aspect in both the 24 and 28 footer. People could have a quick little boat and some overnight or afternoon accomodations if they wanted to.

Great ideas, keep them coming and thanks for the input.

 

[fund razor]

He said if he was going out for less than 3 hours that day, he would jump in the Banana. If he was going out longer or staying over someplace, he took the bigger boat.

I think that is what I was thinking. I work full time, so my windows of opportunity tend to be small. If it is a nice Saturday afternoon and I want to go out on the lake, I take it to the ramp and am back by dark. My 28 is small enough to have a fun ride, but big enough for some confidence if conditions change. I have used a 21, a 26, and a 28 for this purpose. A well built 24 would fit right in. I also think that 28 and under is fairly easy to keep at home on a trailer, leaving the option of leaving a cruiser in the water as the "summer home."
For me, the combination of a fat pig like an Egg Harbor at the yacht club year round (wet slip in summer, jack stands in winter) and a trailerable "speedboat" would be the perfect combination and meet all of my boating needs. I happen to have a dually because my 28 is heavy, but a 24 would eliminate that need.

 

[cdail28590]

The biggest issue I see, which was pointed out earlier, was the cost of a new 24'. I'm guessing a new 24' is going to be in the $70-90k range. For me thats a lot of money for a 24' or even a 28' boat. New boats in general are getting so expensive that its more appealing to buy used. I think if you could provide a 24' with decent power in the $40-50k range more people would be interested in it.

 

[Top Banana]

The biggest issue I see, which was pointed out earlier, was the cost of a new 24'. I'm guessing a new 24' is going to be in the $70-90k range. For me thats a lot of money for a 24' or even a 28' boat. New boats in general are getting so expensive that its more appealing to buy used. I think if you could provide a 24' with decent power in the $40-50k range more people would be interested in it.

That brings up and intersting point. Let's forget the 24 footer for now and focus on the 28. As many of you know the biggest cost in a new boat is the cost of the engines, either outboards or sterndrives. Soooooo....should we entertain the idea of selling the 28 footers as bare hulls and decks with certain items included....fuel tanks, navigation lights, windshield?

Seriously, the reason a lot of companies won't sell a bare hull and deck is they are concerned about what the final product will be like. No one wants to build a boat that is known as a, less than best reputation, because of how others beyond their control finished it.

Or, do we include an option list that the customer can work from, up to and including a complete running boat?
Or maybe just hulls and decks to dealers that would do the actual finish work.

There is no easy answer, but it gets complicated quickly.

What would a price point be for a 28 like one of these photos.

Bare hull and deck in white gelcoat. Center fuel tank installed, windshield installed, hole cut for single engine sterndrive in transom.

Cockpit interior, front seats or bolsters and rear bench seat installed....choice of 7 colors for interior.

Would anyone....even dealers be interested in a boat like this coming to the market?

 

[Buoy]

Selling un-rigged hulls...
The first problem I see as a consumer would be warranty issues. Something goes wrong and you have the rigger pointing fingers at the builder of the hull, and the hull builder blaming the rigger, or both of them blaming the engine maker... The customer is caught in the middle.

 

[Top Banana]

Selling un-rigged hulls...
The first problem I see as a consumer would be warranty issues. Something goes wrong and you have the rigger pointing fingers at the builder of the hull, and the hull builder blaming the rigger, or both of them blaming the engine maker... The customer is caught in the middle.

That is why I said we could use a dealer .....say for an example the dealer used was TNT out of Miami. Each group...boat builder and dealer...would respect the other's ability to do a top job and the customer would get a price break...maybe?

 

[cdail28590]

I like the idea of a unrigged hull completed minus drive and motor or you do options to have all rigging run and a drive on it all that is needed from the customer is a motor. I think there are a lot of people that have good powerplants that want a newer boat and wouldn't have a problem buying a boat unrigged with only a hull structural warranty at good price for a starting point or like you said have all the options to do whatever. Think about if you could buy a new boat with interior, gauges, lights, and rigging to the motor for a price of $20k and you supplied the drive and motor. I think a lot of boaters would be pulling their current motors and drives off to put on that boat at that price point.

 

[Buoy]

That is why I said we could use a dealer .....say for an example the dealer used was TNT out of Miami. Each group...boat builder and dealer...would respect the other's ability to do a top job and the customer would get a price break...maybe?

I see where you're going, but at that point you aren't selling unrigged hulls. You are just outsourcing the rigging.

I know years ago Pantera sold a few unrigged hulls, and I'm sure they still would today. But, among the "Pantera Cult", when one of these boats comes up for sale used, the very first thing that everyone starts screaming is "It wasn't rigged by Pantera".

But, on the other hand if you're looking at a Cigarette, if it was done by Lipship it's more desirable.

I know I didn't answer any question here, just throwing things out for discussion.

 

[Top Banana]

Think about if you could buy a new boat with interior, gauges, lights, and rigging to the motor for a price of $20k and you supplied the drive and motor. I think a lot of boaters would be pulling their current motors and drives off to put on that boat at that price point.

LOL, I was actually thinking of selling a 28 footer, not a 10 footer.

I think though, you are just using any low price point for an example. Your quoted price, $20K, is not that far off for a full cockpit with bolsters, sun pad and cabin interior...never mind the cost of layup of the hull and deck and all of the pieces and parts to get it ready for an engine installation.

We are thinking along the same lines here, just a bit off on the price.

 

[Bobcat]

Years ago (and I mean years) I took a 19' Dynasty down to LOTO....and almost sank it (which would have been a shame because it was full of strippers.....college girl strippers not biker strippers) A year later I took a 23'7" Powerquest down there and had a really good time in all conditions.

To this day I believe 24' is the minimum length for rough water. I do like 28' footers the most, because you can still tow them in residential areas with ease, and they can handle any water I want to be in. Love the sound of big blocks, but I boat in saltwater 100% of the time, and skinny saltwater water 50% of that time(nice to be able to idle trimmed to the max) ..so I am always looking at O/B's . Outboard 28's can fly !!!! Plus a usable cabin is nice.

So anything tow-able, fast , and dependable ...sounds easy !!!! (and a huge swim ladder for us older larger folks)

 

[Buoy]

I agree with Bobcat, 28' is ideal.
And, if I were in salt, I'd want O/B's

 

[Ratickle]

I believe that 28' Offshore boats won several of the long offshore races back in the day. I also know of a Pantera that set a long-distance record once upon a time.

 

[Ratickle]

As Pepe passed to me, the record boat was a 24'.

 

[Top Banana]

Staying with old school usable cabin boat look in a 28 ............or should we modernize it a bit by sleeking back the windshield and blending it into the deck line ...........or even just a flat deck like the old Cary outboard raceboat has here.

What does the next generation of buyers want for a timeless look?