Let's try a different approach

[sbracing]

Excellent points Mike.The thing that I was most impressed with during the APBA LLC era, was the fact that you and your staff were looking to proven professional motorsports organizations like NASCAR for guidance in how to take our sport to the "next level".There is no doubt that every aspect of offshore powerboat racing was at its best during that time.I feel fortunate to have raced a little during that time;and certainly hope the sport can get headed back in that direction.

I think we can follow NHRA's lead with a PRO and SPORTSMAN CLASS structure.As Fastshafts pointed out, NHRA has a couple of featured PRO CLASSES(Top Fuel Dragster,Top Fuel Funny Car and Pro Stock); and many,many SPORTSMAN CLASSES.NASCAR has three featured national touring series classes(Sprint Cup,Nationwide,and Camping World Trucks);and many regional and local series and classes.

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

This format is not that far off what was successfull in the mid to late eighties before the split(s) in the sanctioning bodies.Back then, you had five PRO CLASSES(too many though)..Superboat,Open,Modified,Pro-Stock and Stock...and four SPORTSMAN CLASSES A,B,C & D.

Just an opinion...any thoughts???

I agree with the 2 Pro Class system, but would make the current OPA
bracket racing the sportsman series. Keeps the policing to a minimum.

Basically you are using Grand-Am Rolex Series model for your pro series
(2 classes DP fast, GT less fast) and NHRA Bracket racing model for your sportsman series. Two great organizations to copy from.

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

Race them on Sunday

Saturday race 4 Bracket classes in two races.

Friday Have Testing and Extreme Boat Shoot outs

 

[XtremeRacing]

What I love most about this sport is not everyone can do it. I don't care how much time and money you have, boat racing can eat you alive. It's dangerous and expensive. I find it funny that so many people complain about how things are so messed up and racing would be better if it was different. The question is why aren't you (you, the one reading this)racing? I'll tell you why I am not this year...it's because I can't afford it, and as soon as I can afford to race I will, I don't care about the polictics, it's simple economics. We spent 165K on a doug wright and another 50k racing it. I never won a race in that boat and that didn't make me want to stop racing. I just honestly couldn't afford to do it any longer. I bet most of the complainers...and you know who you are....If you got your way and everything was just how you wanted, with rules you want and TV you want and all this other nonsense. You wouldn't go spend the $ to campaign a race team, you would sit behind a computer and complain about how it should be. Go race with a nascar team if there's more prize money and better tv and better everything. Go race F1 overseas where racers are treated like gods. Go race SS in Dubai with TV and 30k for first place.

Do you want racing to change? Do you want more prize money? Do you want a sponsor? Name anything you want.

Here is the list of what you need to do.

1. Buy a raceboat, Borrow a raceboat, Get a race boat. (that means anything from p5-turbine extreme)

2. Pay the fee's become part of some organization....SBI, UIM, P1, OSS, OPA Ect.

3. Follow the rules and guidlines of the organzation and class that were made by the racers before you. (I know is SS in SBI if we wanted a rule change everyone in the class had a vote and majority ruled)

4. Participate

5. Now you have the ability to create what you want from the inside.

6. It really is that simple...mark my words good racing is good racing, if 35 P-5 boats show up for a race. That would be better for the fans, TV and sponsors and everyone involved than anything that has happened in offshore in years. And the 165K plus 50K that we spent in 07, we could run a three boat team. Just like the real motorsports.


My 2 cents

Tague Estes

That pretty much sums it up, great post.
If teams raced more and stayed out of the politics , we would all be better off. The powers to be know what they need to do and thats not going to change.

 

[phragle]

what racing needs??? It needs people to remember why they race, what drew them to it to begin with. Your not going to get rich racng boats, your financial statement will most likely be negativley impacted. your not going to get famous racing..

people race because they ENJOY it.

stop bickering, stop fighting, stop reinventing the wheel, stop making racing into a pain in the ass. Go racing and have fun. Fun is contagious. Why are we losing racers to poker running?? because they percieve it as more enjoyable. All I read is this orginazation sucks, that one is a mess.... this problem, that problem, waaaa waaaa waaaa....

Who in their right mind would get into racing when after a little research they come to the opinion that racing is miserable and it sucks.

Go out, have fun and it will grow again, continue the misery and there is not enough prozac in the world to cure the depression that will kill the sport.

 

[Ratickle]

I'll tell you why I am not this year...it's because I can't afford it, and as soon as I can afford to race I will, I don't care about the polictics, it's simple economics. We spent 165K on a doug wright and another 50k racing it. I never won a race in that boat and that didn't make me want to stop racing. I just honestly couldn't afford to do it any longer. 1. Buy a raceboat, Borrow a raceboat, Get a race boat. (that means anything from p5-turbine extreme)

2. Pay the fee's become part of some organization....SBI, UIM, P1, OSS, OPA Ect.

Tague Estes

Here is where I believe the entire point needs to be clarified.

You are not racing because you can no longer afford the expense, but you say go buy, borrow, steal and race a boat.

You also say pay the fee's for an org. If you can't afford to pay the fees for an org and race, why can the rest of us. The reason for me, there is no reason to expect the boat I bought a couple of years ago to be legal this year or next. And there is no reason to expect the organization to be there to help support the race boat I purchased to race. Or maybe we should be expected to join every org to be safe? The travel expenses kill someone like me.

If there was one org, If there were two or three run what you brung, two to three lower classes ie; SVL, Outboard Cat, Outboard Vee, and two to three major classes ie: Open Vee, Open Cat, Turbine. Then it falls into place.

The oldtimers, (I remember the first turbine Unlimited, I knocked it), knock Turbines, but if it weren't for Geico, JBS, etc. There would be no national publicity at all....I think they are owed a note of appreciation, not a knock.

Racing became very expensive when it went away from the regional series with a national and world championship. It needs to get back to that with identical classes..... Who in the Midwest doesn't remember the SilverCup series? Out west, Nordskog and POPBRA?

Those are the only reasons I don't currently own a race boat and race. And I've been researching this for 3 years and looking at boats. And many of you current racers have been very helpful, but it's hard to convince myself to spend the coin when I can't even get an agreement on what an SVL should weigh....

Anyway, you guys are talking, I'm listening, so b-tch slap me now....:sifone:

 

[inbetween]

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

As a fan, I like than idea similar to this. Keep it simple.

A simplified class structure for the "main event", such as one cat class and one v class, would greatly improve the casual fans ability to watch and enjoy a race. They would know who's winning instead of trying to figure out who's racing who. There are currently too many classes where the boats all look the same, sound the same, similar speeds, numbered the same and they're all on the course at the same time.

I'm a long time fan, been watching since the 70's as a very young kid, and it's still confusing at times. And is it really racing if you're the only one in your class?

 

[Tague]

Here is where I believe the entire point needs to be clarified.

You are not racing because you can no longer afford the expense, but you say go buy, borrow, steal and race a boat.

You also say pay the fee's for an org. If you can't afford to pay the fees for an org and race, why can the rest of us. The reason for me, there is no reason to expect the boat I bought a couple of years ago to be legal this year or next. And there is no reason to expect the organization to be there to help support the race boat I purchased to race. Or maybe we should be expected to join every org to be safe? The travel expenses kill someone like me.



QUOTE]

So racing needs to be free?....I can't afford to race...that is true..but I am not making claims as to why the organizations have forced me out of the sport...Most are a for profit business. Just like every other motorsport that you try and compare boat racing to.

To my knowledge no organization has ever just made rules...members in the class make the rules. I think that you are talking about being competitive...there are plenty of supervee's out there that are not as fast as some of the new one's...The reason they aren't racing is not because they not legal....It's because they don't like to loose. Just like every other motorsport...nobody's running a 10 year old F1 car. But take SS, Steve and Lee are running an almost 10 year old boat and had one hell of a race with Ryan in his much newer Skater.

If the organization doesn't have people to race then they are out of business....There are a select few who make there living at this and they promote themselves..They don't complain about all this...they go out on there own and get sponsors themselves...If it was as Nascar and all other major motorsports and professional 95% of racers wouldn't be racing...that's why I say go buy a nascar and see how well you do...or say well I would race the nextell cup seriers but the travel and fee's are too expensive...you can't have it both ways

 

[Ratickle]

Maybe you're correct, I don't think so though for many of the classes.

How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???

We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

If these were the same, (SVL or Production), I could have had a season this year running in Harrison, St Clair, Michigan City, LOTO, Lake Cumberland, and one of the Northeast Races (maybe 2), plus the Worlds without, as you say, spending more than I can afford to or having to get huge sponsers to cover a hundred thousand of expenses. Sure it would have been three different orgs. But there would have been one more boat at 7 or 8 races. Plus, most likely the total expense would have been in the 80 to 100 range (plus boat of course).

 

[XtremeRacing]

We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

SBI and OPA P class speed are the same just a different GPS not that hard if you really wanted to race.

 

[Tague]

(How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???)

Now we're getting somewhere...people got out of the sport like me, for one reason or another...and now want to come back. But people that have continued to race and supported there organization have made changes to the rules to better suit there class. Now your boat will not be as competitive. In my opinion these boats have a place in P class.

(We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....
Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).)

I have only raced with SBI and don't know the P-Class rules of all the other organizations. But I would bet any legal P-1 through P-5, could be made legal and competitive with setup and testing with all orgainizations.

As for the expense of running all the organizations I don't know all the costs but right now there are 2 boats for sale that I know of that are p-5 legal.

Expenses for SBI
Fixed costs
20K for boat, motor trailer.
10K in spare parts.
$600 equiment fee for the year
$700 for two race memberships.

$31,300 for year.

$300 Travel and from race
$300 3 nights in a hotel
$600 entry fee
$200 fuel in boat for testing and racing
$1000 stuff I'm forgetting

$2400 per race


Find 3 friends that are in the same position as you and create a team. (this is what I am trying to do for next season)

the 4 of you split the boat costs. 31,300/4=$7825 take a loan and pay it over 12 months $650 a month plus interests and at the end of the year the for of you own the boat outright and next season you decide what to do.


There are 8 races for SBI, split it up 4 and 4. $2400/2=$1200 each.

There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.

 

[Ratickle]

We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....

Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).

SBI and OPA P class speed are the same just a different GPS not that hard if you really wanted to race.

OSS is different, correct?

And aren't the sizes different also???

 

[MarylandMark]

Q- Why does one think it takes so long to announce the winners?

A- nobody know who is racing who in which class under which org

Not many more than the the 300 or so people directly involved have a clue who is racing who. To add on to that they don't have a clue because they don't care enough to try to learn (I'm in this group).

KISS- keep it simple stupid!

Here is one simple idea:

Obviously there is lingering questions on how many classes. For now (and I would say stick with it in the future as well) how about making the main color in each class paint their boat the same color. Still have multi-colored sponsor logos and the like; talking the main color or gel-coat or whatever. Got 8 classes? Who cares- I and every other idiot knows the red boat is racing the red boat, the blue boat is racing the blue boat, etc

I know- I'm good at spending other peoples money but IF you get a product fans like they will be paying you for you to show it to them (ie- professional paid boat racing)...

 

[Ratickle]

Here's what I have.

Class 500 OPA, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' maximum size, Vees only
Class 400 OPA, 85mph maximum speed GPS, Vees only


SBI P5, 75mph maximum speed GPS, 30' and under single engine
SBI P4, 85mph maximun speed GPS, no limitations


Class 4 OSS, 65mph average calculated plus timed, single engine only or twin outboard 24' to 30'
Class 3 OSS, 75mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations
Class 2 OSS, 85mph average calculated plus timed, no limitations


Have I read the rules wrong?

 

[Ratickle]

There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.

I currently have a boat that with a simple switch from TRS to Konrad would probably be a competitive 85mph prodution class Vee. So, the boat expense isn't much.

I also believe, from talking with people, even in this day and age I could get 10 $5000 sponsers if I committed to racing a 10 race season. The other half would come out of my pocket, but if I were competitive, I'm sure I'd get that covered.

I would personally rather race non-bracket and trade the boat, or one of the other ones, for an SVL, but the rules for the different orgs are different and OPA doesn't have the class. I was also watching stock outboards, but OPA doesn't have the class and Steve Quick thought it would be a slight bit dumb, (not his exact words), for somone to start racing in a cat who has only owned Vee's.

 

[MarylandMark]

"Racing" with speed limits- that makes me giggle every time

 

[Ratickle]

"Racing" with speed limits- that makes me giggle every time

I know what you mean, however....


It keeps the cost down for those who race 2 or 3 races a year locally and can help find future racers for the non-bracket (drag-racing) classes.

 

[Chris]

Racing with "speed limits" is the great equalizer. It means that a guy with a few-year-old boat can compete and win. It also means that you can't buy your way into a championship so easily.

You wanna' know how the sport ends up with so many organizations, classes and fractures? Guys shopping to see where they're the most competitive with the boats they already own. If you look at the guys winning at OPA, they're most often the more experienced guys. It takes skill and knowledge, not just who has the most expensive boat.

The GPS classes in boat racing are dramatically different than breakout brackets in drag racing. When that first started, I remember smoke pouring off of car's tires the last 100 feet before the finish line. These boats are set up to run on that number. I think a better analogy is the restrictions NASCAR puts on stock cars- or even the Indy cars. You could make it more complicated to manage top speeds, as they do, or you can give the guys a number and a GPS box.

Most of all, you can't tell from the shore. And isn't the core solution to the issues of racing getting people- fans and sponsors- interested?

 

[Ratickle]

Racing with "speed limits" is the great equalizer. It means that a guy with a few-year-old boat can compete and win. It also means that you can't buy your way into a championship so easily.

You wanna' know how the sport ends up with so many organizations, classes and fractures? Guys shopping to see where they're the most competitive with the boats they already own. If you look at the guys winning at OPA, they're most often the more experienced guys. It takes skill and knowledge, not just who has the most expensive boat.

The GPS classes in boat racing are dramatically different than breakout brackets in drag racing. When that first started, I remember smoke pouring off of car's tires the last 100 feet before the finish line. These boats are set up to run on that number. I think a better analogy is the restrictions NASCAR puts on stock cars- or even the Indy cars. You could make it more complicated to manage top speeds, as they do, or you can give the guys a number and a GPS box.

Most of all, you can't tell from the shore. And isn't the core solution to the issues of racing getting people- fans and sponsors- interested?

I've seen boats crawling at the end of laps also.......

 

[rchevelle71]

(How many boats out there do not currently race head to head because rules were changed to give the manufacturer, or someone, a class the boat could win???)

Now we're getting somewhere...people got out of the sport like me, for one reason or another...and now want to come back. But people that have continued to race and supported there organization have made changes to the rules to better suit there class. Now your boat will not be as competitive. In my opinion these boats have a place in P class.

(We can't even seem to get the rules for Production Classes the same between orgs....
Should I set a boat up for 75mph or 80mph, (or whatever the diff is currently).)

I have only raced with SBI and don't know the P-Class rules of all the other organizations. But I would bet any legal P-1 through P-5, could be made legal and competitive with setup and testing with all orgainizations.

As for the expense of running all the organizations I don't know all the costs but right now there are 2 boats for sale that I know of that are p-5 legal.

Expenses for SBI
Fixed costs
20K for boat, motor trailer.
10K in spare parts.
$600 equiment fee for the year
$700 for two race memberships.

$31,300 for year.

$300 Travel and from race
$300 3 nights in a hotel
$600 entry fee
$200 fuel in boat for testing and racing
$1000 stuff I'm forgetting

$2400 per race


Find 3 friends that are in the same position as you and create a team. (this is what I am trying to do for next season)

the 4 of you split the boat costs. 31,300/4=$7825 take a loan and pay it over 12 months $650 a month plus interests and at the end of the year the for of you own the boat outright and next season you decide what to do.


There are 8 races for SBI, split it up 4 and 4. $2400/2=$1200 each.

There you go...this what I would do if I could afford it, right now I can't but I'm working on it. And no matter what the rules or organizations say... It's still to expensive for me and my friends, even with prize money, TV, Fans, you name it. The fixed costs are still up there. Boat racing isn't for everyone.

I like your thinking, unfortunately that is too much for me right now also, but the way you explain it makes it seem affordable for some.

 

[Ratickle]

I like your thinking, unfortunately that is too much for me right now also, but the way you explain it makes it seem affordable for some.

My opinion is it's affordable for anyone who can afford two boats with no assistance. If you take the expense of buying the boat out of the above scenario, add 1/2 the costs repaid by sponsors, you're there.....

The raceboat is definitely able to get sponsors to offset the race expenses if you can afford the boat (in the smaller classes)......