I would like to talk about new vers old

[DrGaryDC]

Poor analogy,
Predator was P2 champs in 06 - apache
Bounty Hunter P4 champs in 09 - 79 cigarette
Im sure we can grow this list.
This racing chit is not indy or nascar racing where 0.1 second determines if your the champ or not. We know there is no money in this sport and cant make a living doing this. Just go out there and have fun, be competitive, have a class act team, make some friends, enjoy life. I got my apache because I grew up in this sport in the 80's when apaches dominated. Sure, technology has changed, speeds are incredible now. You can say im crazy for getting an apache but i wanted old school. I could have a 170mph + skater if i choose. I would not say new boats today are any better built than one 20 years old. Just my 2 cents

 

[DAREDEVIL]

Doc, you are correct , but you are all not reading my question !!!!

SAME WEIGHT, SAME HP and DRIVE SET UP !!!!

so i think if a 10K # fountain with #6 and 700 Hp each side would run against a 10 K # APACHE with the same HP and rives..the fountain may be 2 MPH faster in calm water but in the ruff and turns the APACHE would win even if it was build in 1980 !!!!!

Any how, tats not the point ,,we are talking SVL !!!!:sifone:

 

[Racerguymiami]

DD, We understand your question. To help you understand. Take 2 boats, same length same weight, same HP same drive and X. One has a 20 degree v the other has a 26 degree v. Put them out on a flat lake for a drag race. Most likely the 20 degree will smoke the 26 degree v. Why? because it is designed differently. Techmology has come a long way since the 90's. Lets take the Extreme SVL. Very fast boat. Without changing anything else on this boat lets move the step forward or aft a couple of inches. Maybe change the step pitch up or down a couple of degrees. Will it make a difference? I'm sure it will, maybe for the worse or maybe for the better.Same goes for the deck and aerodynamics. Do any one of these things and maybe add 1 MPH to your AVERAGE speed. Add 1 MPH over a 60 mile race. Where you were racing neck and neck before now your 1 mile ahead at the end of the race. Top end speed is important but not most important when it comes to offshore racing. Design and build a boat that gets around the course faster than your competetors. Stop looking at your speedo and look at your watch.

The batboat mentioned above is a perfect example. The RainX A class batboat was moved to its own very quickly formed AX class cause it smoked everything it competed against. I'm pretty confident that if 500 lbs was added to that boat it probably would have got around the course even faster.

You also answered your own question in your last post regarding the Fountain and Apache. Change the Apache to the T4 stepped apache hull, build it in 2010 and the 2MPH difference you mentioned will turn to 0.

 

[DAREDEVIL]

DD, We understand your question. To help you understand. Take 2 boats, same length same weight, same HP same drive and X. One has a 20 degree v the other has a 26 degree v. Put them out on a flat lake for a drag race. Most likely the 20 degree will smoke the 26 degree v. Why? because it is designed differently. Techmology has come a long way since the 90's. Lets take the Extreme SVL. Very fast boat. Without changing anything else on this boat lets move the step forward or aft a couple of inches. Maybe change the step pitch up or down a couple of degrees. Will it make a difference? I'm sure it will, maybe for the worse or maybe for the better.Same goes for the deck and aerodynamics. Do any one of these things and maybe add 1 MPH to your AVERAGE speed. Add 1 MPH over a 60 mile race. Where you were racing neck and neck before now your 1 mile ahead at the end of the race. Top end speed is important but not most important when it comes to offshore racing. Design and build a boat that gets around the course faster than your competetors. Stop looking at your speedo and look at your watch.

The batboat mentioned above is a perfect example. The RainX A class batboat was moved to its own very quickly formed AX class cause it smoked everything it competed against. I'm pretty confident that if 500 lbs was added to that boat it probably would have got around the course even faster.

You also answered your own question in your last post regarding the Fountain and Apache. Change the Apache to the T4 stepped apache hull, build it in 2010 and the 2MPH difference you mentioned will turn to 0.

Hey...it would turn like **** so u just lost the race in your Apache !!!! LOL

 

[Team Tsunami]

If O/L's comes out with a SVL also...do you think it is going to run 88 to 90 mph...or do you think its going to be 92+....then you will have sandbaging...adn then whats the differance in GPS racing and spec racing with sandbagers.....

Good luck guys...you have a great class...hope you all can come to a cure for newer tech.

Oh if we build one you bet on it that it will one fast mofo!!:cheers2:

 

[Racerguymiami]

You really are an idiot!

 

[Racerguymiami]

And will add, not worth having a discussion on anything.

 

[Phantom1]

And will add, not worth having a discussion on anything.

DD's fan club is growing I see..... I say we give DD his own forum so he can go mass-debate with himself.

 

[DAREDEVIL]

You really are an idiot!

Are u the guy that worked for Primier Performance Marine once ???

If so, i would not bad mouth any body if i where u !!!!

 

[DAREDEVIL]

DD's fan club is growing I see..... I say we give DD his own forum so he can go mass-debate with himself.

The way it looks, i would still have u follow me around....i thought u said yasterday u where done with me ??

I love fans..:kiss:

 

[DAREDEVIL]

To me , i say my question has not gotten a 100% answer ...becasue most of u don't even know why i asked...there was talk about that this said NEW Fountain would run # everybody dreams of...but so far nobody could say why !

There is no way anybody could make a boat with stepps handle like a straight V ( same weight..remember ) and there is just no way by changing deck and /or other surface to make a boat ( again same HP,WEIGHT,LENGTH& DRIVE ) run 10MPH faster and still handle like the others !!!!!

But hey...its ok,,,u guys keep calling me what ever u think i am and i just think of u what ever u really are !!!!!!:cheers2::seeya:

BTW, the # i was hearing about is 104 MPH ....THERE IS NO absolute NO WAY u get that # out of a boat like it say's in the rules !!!

Thank u for all your profesional and un profesional coments on this Thread !!!

But i beg the mods not to delete it,, so we can come back after a view SVL races and look what we said !!!!!

Thanks

 

[F1-00 Racing]

OK DD and I am being serious here, what was the fastest that the "Twisted Chyx" ever ran with a stock sealed 500 EFI.(I was told 80-81 by Bob and Teresa, but I am asking you) I know first hand that the kilo record from when Chyx was competing was 82.99 mph and that was accomplished by the Velocity VR1. I am basing this on apples to apples, being the F1 class which had the same weight, pwr and drive configuration.

After the process of bringing my boat back to being totally legal, I had a documented run @ 86 and change(one pass being 87 something) and have GPS'ed(you know the factors) @ 92. Bottom line, the fountain bottom is more efficient. Now mind you in race scenario's, the 7ft beam is a huge advantage when it comes to the handling, but if you have the right people in the Fountain cockpit, that advantage is a moot point as you have witnessed first hand.

This is stuff I am sure you already know, but in SV the fastest Phantom was 108(Fury) and the Fountain 38(Invensys) did 112 and the Fountain 40(Micosukee) did 115. All being done with the same specs for the SV class.

I feel the bottom line to your question is:boat/primarily hull efficiency. Just as televisions have advanced, so has hull technology.

Oh and you finding the 104 svl speed unrealistic, I dont find it that hard to believe, its a Fountain:sifone:

Now I have played nice, I expect the same from you

 

[DAREDEVIL]

OK DD and I am being serious here, what was the fastest that the "Twisted Chyx" ever ran with a stock sealed 500 EFI.(I was told 80-81 by Bob and Teresa, but I am asking you) I know first hand that the kilo record from when Chyx was competing was 82.99 mph and that was accomplished by the Velocity VR1. I am basing this on apples to apples, being the F1 class which had the same weight, pwr and drive configuration.

After the process of bringing my boat back to being totally legal, I had a documented run @ 86 and change(one pass being 87 something) and have GPS'ed(you know the factors) @ 92. Bottom line, the fountain bottom is more efficient. Now mind you in race scenario's, the 7ft beam is a huge advantage when it comes to the handling, but if you have the right people in the Fountain cockpit, that advantage is a moot point as you have witnessed first hand.(Marathon 08)

This is stuff I am sure you already know, but in SV the fastest Phantom was 108(Fury) and the Fountain 38(Invensys) did 112 and the Fountain 40(Micosukee) did 115. All being done with the same specs for the SV class.

I feel the bottom line to your question is:boat/primarily hull efficiency. Just as televisions have advanced, so has hull technology.

Oh and you finding the 104 svl speed unrealistic, I dont find it that hard to believe, its a Fountain:sifone:

Now I have played nice, I expect the same from you

Trent, absoluteley right ..with a kilo prop where u can't hardly get on plane !!!

But not in race condition ??? YES ???
The micosukee has #6's and the others ran XR's...YES ????

I mean i know u can gain speed..but only about 1-2 maybe 3 MPH..by doing all what u can LEGALY do other then that...i really don't think there is more in it !?
And if u gain that speed by all these LEGAL changes..would it still turn / handle the way it should ???

All that is my point !!! AND YES APPLES TO APPLES !!!!!!! both red..not 1 green and one red !

 

[POWERPLAY33]

Poor analogy,
Predator was P2 champs in 06 - apache
Bounty Hunter P4 champs in 09 - 79 cigarette
Im sure we can grow this list.
This racing chit is not indy or nascar racing where 0.1 second determines if your the champ or not. We know there is no money in this sport and cant make a living doing this. Just go out there and have fun, be competitive, have a class act team, make some friends, enjoy life. I got my apache because I grew up in this sport in the 80's when apaches dominated. Sure, technology has changed, speeds are incredible now. You can say im crazy for getting an apache but i wanted old school. I could have a 170mph + skater if i choose. I would not say new boats today are any better built than one 20 years old. Just my 2 cents

Thank you for being passionate! If I had 2 dimes to rub together I'd be running next to you! My hat is off to you and I hope to see you uphere this season....:USA:

 

[htrdlncn]

now put all those boats new and old and race 100-200miles in real 6ft seas
and I can bet none hull differences over the years would make a damn bit of difference,just who had the best driver/throttleman and engines.
It all comes down to what and where you are racing.
Then again these days a race would be canceled if they had real 6ft seas wouldnt it..

 

[F1-00 Racing]

Yes the, 92 god it was a pain to get her up(kilo prop), regardless she got up and the hull allowed those speeds. The documented numbers were with the 27 5 blade that I have raced for how long, forever, the only difference was I put the weight in the bilge instead of in the bow, then went out and raced the next day with that exact setup, it is still 6-7 mph faster than Chyx, according to what Bob and Teresa told me.

And honestly arent #6's supposed to be slower than XR/ITS/XZ? I thought most everyone went to the 6's out of a reliability factor. I dont know the answer, enlighten me!

I draw this experience not from being a "Fountain" guy but before just your time I ran another manufacture and the top speed was 78 mph, with a 496HO. Keep in mind, if we had dropped 1000 hp in her all she would do would be 78, the hull would not allow anymore out of her while maintaining control. Believe me I tried, I did hit 80 once and you know I am pretty fearless, but I saw my life flashing before my eyes on that fiasco.

Another point to add is that Wardey's Extreme with a 496HO does 83(comfortably)

 

[POWERPLAY33]

now put all those boats new and old and race 100-200miles in real 6ft seas
and I can bet none hull differences over the years would make a damn bit of difference,just who had the best driver/throttleman and engines.
It all comes down to what and where you are racing.
Then again these days a race would be canceled if they had real 6ft seas wouldnt it..

Yes but that's real racing and not viewer friendly. Look at the old vids of races and think if the new boats would hold together? Not knocking the boats but we all know they are potatoe chips....

 

[F1-00 Racing]

Htrdlncn,

I agree, I would not put my boat in those conditions on a regular basis, although it has seen its share of 6-8 ft seas in its time. My boat is what is known as a "potato chip" and was specifically designed for the racing of the modern era.

Even today the spec classes are "designed" to put "equal" situations and let it boil down to the skill set of the driver and throttlemen, the P class really isnt racing against competition, it is strictly, who has the most torque at the right range and you compete directly with a computer. It down plays any skills that a driver or throttleman have, you just have to be proficient.

One disagreement with you however, no races are not canceled due to real 6 ft seas, if the choppers can fly, the race goes on.

 

[DAREDEVIL]

If #6's are mounted correct they are faster..less drag higher given X and more setback and better props !!!!!

OK, BUT...how many races did u win with that fast boat ???

ALL OF THEM ???? NO, thats the point !!!!!

There are advantages as well as dis advantage ...that is the point , not speed wins all the BS together does..and i call BS on all the changes done to some exsisting Phantom SVL's ,,their not spec anymore after these changes..so i guess it really would not matter anyways.....next thing u know somebody comes up with a 525 turibine in SVL !!!! OH,,SEALED OFCOARSE :sifone:

 

[DAREDEVIL]

BTW, i talked to boat builders and designers ..NOT JUST WILL S. and all said the same ,,, it all depends in which seas u run it and that there is NO magic to it ..change the deck gain on one end but loose on the other ..its all theory and not racing...U would need to have the BEST PEOPLE AND THE BEST BOAT AND CREW TO WIN......thats why i most of the time loose..lol