Cat insurance in trouble

Soooo really what you're saying is no one else but you is qualified to teach proper high performance boating? That's kindve how I'm reading it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's up to the insurance companies as to who they choose to accept as accredited and consider their training courses when writing and/or discounting performance boat coverage. And in that respect, I believe the TM school is the only one.

I won't speak for Tres, but I think he'd tell you there are plenty of people capable of instructing someone on safe operation of a fast boat. But he's the guy that did what was necessary to make the service available to the performance boating community. I've heard first hand at least a couple dozen times stories about how someone got insurance they weren't getting otherwise as a result of the school.

Tres and Brad are owed a debt of gratitude for what they're attempting to do FOR the performance boating community. All it's going to take is one bad year in our world before the possibility of no insurance at all for 100+ mph boats could be a reality. Everyone seems to forget a couple years ago when some major $$ claims took some lives and some expensive boats. Then the economy cooled and so did the sport. We get a boom and a bunch of big-money neophytes into these top-end boats and we may be right back there. 5 or 6 big crashes in a season is all it would take for Tres to maybe be the only light at the end of the insurance tunnel.

So to Tres and Brad- Thanks!
 
Soooo really what you're saying is no one else but you is qualified to teach proper high performance boating? That's kindve how I'm reading it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That not entirely true, But Its one thing to have the complete knowledge, and another to know how to teach it, connect with your clients. We never stop focusing on what causes the accidents and humam behavior responses, We study real hard , documenting the handling problems of many hull designs, and still do R@D all the time to stay on top of what we do, that is why I am a consultant for many boat companies. Not just get in a boat a say just trim it here and turn it there and you'll be OK. I will say this , we are the elite, We teach the best skills, and have put more time and effort in to most proven safeguards in all speeds of handling.Please quit trying to bring my efforts into a negative tone. I just not real happy the liabilities are increasing on the waterway over dodging proper training ,,and so many of you think thats OK.
 
it's up to the insurance companies as to who they choose to accept as accredited and consider their training courses when writing and/or discounting performance boat coverage. And in that respect, i believe the tm school is the only one.

I won't speak for tres, but i think he'd tell you there are plenty of people capable of instructing someone on safe operation of a fast boat. But he's the guy that did what was necessary to make the service available to the performance boating community. I've heard first hand at least a couple dozen times stories about how someone got insurance they weren't getting otherwise as a result of the school.

Tres and brad are owed a debt of gratitude for what they're attempting to do for the performance boating community. All it's going to take is one bad year in our world before the possibility of no insurance at all for 100+ mph boats could be a reality. Everyone seems to forget a couple years ago when some major $$ claims took some lives and some expensive boats. Then the economy cooled and so did the sport. We get a boom and a bunch of big-money neophytes into these top-end boats and we may be right back there. 5 or 6 big crashes in a season is all it would take for tres to maybe be the only light at the end of the insurance tunnel.

So to tres and brad- thanks!


+1
 
That not entirely true, But Its one thing to have the complete knowledge, and another to know how to teach it, connect with your clients. We never stop focusing on what causes the accidents and humam behavior responses, We study real hard , documenting the handling problems of many hull designs, and still do R@D all the time to stay on top of what we do, that is why I am a consultant for many boat companies. Not just get in a boat a say just trim it here and turn it there and you'll be OK. I will say this , we are the elite, We teach the best skills, and have put more time and effort in to most proven safeguards in all speeds of handling.Please quit trying to bring my efforts into a negative tone. I just not real happy the liabilities are increasing on the waterway over dodging proper training ,,and so many of you think thats OK.

Tres a quicker way to silence your detractors is to mention how many of your post class/instruction students have been in a serious boat crash? I suspect Z E R O . . .

I have heard many here proclaim how great the class was even after having many fast boats/ many years of experience. I haven't heard one person yet say your class was a waste of time/money!
 
I have no problem taking the Tres class and seeking others teaching. However with all that I still wouldn't be able to get insurance. Under 100mph is not a backward step I want to take at this point.

I just think I will stay away from the top cats for the time being. No financing and no insurance available makes selling them very difficult and in this market that is just more risk then I'm willing to take.

Put 1500's in AMII :sifone:
 
That not entirely true, But Its one thing to have the complete knowledge, and another to know how to teach it, connect with your clients. We never stop focusing on what causes the accidents and humam behavior responses, We study real hard , documenting the handling problems of many hull designs, and still do R@D all the time to stay on top of what we do, that is why I am a consultant for many boat companies. Not just get in a boat a say just trim it here and turn it there and you'll be OK. I will say this , we are the elite, We teach the best skills, and have put more time and effort in to most proven safeguards in all speeds of handling.Please quit trying to bring my efforts into a negative tone. I just not real happy the liabilities are increasing on the waterway over dodging proper training ,,and so many of you think thats OK.

Tres, I have no dog in this fight. I don’t have a boat that goes fast enough to have astronomical rates and don’t ever plan on owning one. That's not to say I have not sought training from some of the best in the industry and use that training in addition to the basic common sense that seems to be missing at times in the majority of boaters. And of course I feel there is always room for more experience, more training and more knowledge to be gained.

I’m not trying to bring your hard work and effort into a negative connotation. I’m very happy that you and Brad have been able to spin your experience with power boating into a viable business; a business that has positive affects on the power boating community. I personally have praised your class on various boards based solely on word of mouth from friends that have attended the course. I’ve never met you but I would go as far to say I consider Brad a friend and wish nothing but the best in his business adventures and personal economic growth. I was purely attempting to point out the FACT (when someone asked) that others have found their rates being lowered when having someone with vast training and experience show them how to run their boat on a one-on-one basis.

My only issue (and the issue I pick up from a few others who have posted on this thread) is the arrogance that emits from some of your posts. I have found if you do good by stealth and blush when you find fame, you will find more success in life.
There are others out there that have just as much (or more) on water experience and grasp the same concepts learned from that experience. Others that can instruct, know the dynamics of performance boating, know how and why a boat will handle in various situations and have just as much desire to insure those they are instructing are as safe and prepared for the worst as humanly possible. I also am not a big fan of monopoly’s and feel the more boating schools and options boaters have to insure they are safe will only go to behoove the boating community.

In the end I say, keep up the great work and best of luck to you guys. I truly wish for nothing but success in your business ventures.
 
I for one an getting tired of watching otherwise smart people doing stupid things that harm my sport and drive my costs up. People running very fast boats in waters they shouldn't be on, in macines they have no idea how to operate at their top speeds.

Sometimes people need to be mashed in the face to wake up. Subtle and polite doesn't work on some people.
 
Tres, I have no dog in this fight. I don’t have a boat that goes fast enough to have astronomical rates and don’t ever plan on owning one. That's not to say I have not sought training from some of the best in the industry and use that training in addition to the basic common sense that seems to be missing at times in the majority of boaters. And of course I feel there is always room for more experience, more training and more knowledge to be gained.

I’m not trying to bring your hard work and effort into a negative connotation. I’m very happy that you and Brad have been able to spin your experience with power boating into a viable business; a business that has positive affects on the power boating community. I personally have praised your class on various boards based solely on word of mouth from friends that have attended the course. I’ve never met you but I would go as far to say I consider Brad a friend and wish nothing but the best in his business adventures and personal economic growth. I was purely attempting to point out the FACT (when someone asked) that others have found their rates being lowered when having someone with vast training and experience show them how to run their boat on a one-on-one basis.

My only issue (and the issue I pick up from a few others who have posted on this thread) is the arrogance that emits from some of your posts. I have found if you do good by stealth and blush when you find fame, you will find more success in life.
There are others out there that have just as much (or more) on water experience and grasp the same concepts learned from that experience. Others that can instruct, know the dynamics of performance boating, know how and why a boat will handle in various situations and have just as much desire to insure those they are instructing are as safe and prepared for the worst as humanly possible. I also am not a big fan of monopoly’s and feel the more boating schools and options boaters have to insure they are safe will only go to behoove the boating community.

In the end I say, keep up the great work and best of luck to you guys. I truly wish for nothing but success in your business ventures.


Well said bro !
 
i for one an getting tired of watching otherwise smart people doing stupid things that harm my sport and drive my costs up. People running very fast boats in waters they shouldn't be on, in macines they have no idea how to operate at their top speeds.

Sometimes people need to be mashed in the face to wake up. Subtle and polite doesn't work on some people.

+1
 
Quite a thread, sorry I have not had the opportunity to respond sooner.

I thank all of those who offer support and truly understand the importance of the effort and the highly visible difference in what Tres began and we continue to grow.

First and foremost the HP recreational and racing segment of the boating industry suffers from a lack of professional structure and conduct. In contrast to what I do in the commercial market the gap appears insurmountable. It is our passion and core values which push us forward.

Imagine the response I would get from a cruise line if I told them they should take on all of their oversight within. Fire the Flag Administration, the classification societies, the third party trainers, etc.

For those who do not seem to understand the functional difference between the Tres Martin Performance Boat School and any other type of instruction it is very simple. Performance structure and skill based. Tres began with an outline of topics, this outline was transformed into structured lesson plans, embedded within the lesson plans are critical skill sets which include human behavior response mechanisms also know as somatic models. In order to truly mitigate situation reaching extremis the brain must be trained to respond instinctually. Unfortunately the human response is usually the absolutely wrong response when a boat gets out of shape and the proper response is counter intuitive.

We do not merely take someone for a boat ride and show them what do to. The classroom session is the primer and initial assessment tool, followed by a short on water instructor demo of critical skill sets followed by prolonged coaching while the students drive. You must pass minimum skill level proficiency in order to become certified under the program. The details of this program will never be posted on public forum or published. The depth of instruction is too valuable and proprietary to reveal in open forum.

If you haven’t figured it out by now this is a measureable program. Who likes measurements better than engineers and lawyers? It remains an absolute mystery to me why the HP boat manufactures have not adopted third party review and oversight similar to what occurs in the commercial market. The idea a boat builder or dealer offers training in house leaves them wide open to additional law suits and litigation. While they may be the absolute best in the operation of their boats because they know them inside and out it certainly does not make their training programs legitimate or properly engineered.

A viable business? A monopoly? Bring it! Yes, there are operators who are very good boat drivers and know exactly what do to get the most out of a boat. But to make it a business? The business plan makes no sense at all. To commit to the proper insurance, advertising, lesson plan development, practice and exercise of theroy, etc. Now just for a moment consider the RISK at which Tres and I not only place our selves but our families. We can never miss! How many Poker Runs do I run boats on? How many days do I just jump in and run a boat at what many consider to be stupid speeds. What would the economic fallout be from just one incident to which we would be involved in? No one else comes close to offering an instructional program with true assessment and measurable results. Tres is committed to safety and no one does a better job in regard to safe operation. While short and direct his core values remain constant. To assume different is completely inappropriate. Internet forums and third party reviews do not reveal character and commitment. Being short and direct is not arrogance.

While I remain completely committed to everything we have done and will continue to bring real safety initiatives to this segment of the boat market I remain absolutely baffled by the lack of demonstrated leadership and professional conduct from the front runners in the market.

We have enabled the insurance industry to glean insight and visibility upon their insured in a way they have never had before, we facilitate boat sales for numerous builders and dealers, we have brought TRUE and ENFORCEABLE safety measurements to organized boating events. Boat sales have been initiated from what we are able to teach students. Yet we still have to fight to get them all to recognize the real difference from what we do and what others offer.

Tank, You of anyone should have a better understanding of this. A $15.00 online state boating program is the equivalent to a driver’s license and our program is equivalent to an advanced driving school or course.

Thanks again for all with support and our acknowledgement to our graduates who are committed to safety, safe operation, and to getting the best performance from their boats.

In regard to which is safer-- V or Cat. I will remain silent and continue to let you all enjoy the discussion. However remember this. Accidents don’t just happen. A chain or sequence of events lead to the incident and to the effects or response to the incident. SPEED alone is rarely if ever a root causal factor to an incident. Speed does however dictate severity of consequence and death usually occurs when these boats become upset at high speed. It will take a few years but our new not for profit will eventually be able to show real numbers and measurements in regard to these incidents which we believe will level the playing field between cats and V's. Presently the data does not support this idea.

I look forward to seeing all I can here in Fort Lauderdale and in Key West. I will be running down on Friday.

Stay Safe!
 
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Quite a thread, sorry I have not had the opportunity to respond sooner.

I thank all of those who offer support and truly understand the importance of the effort and the highly visible difference in what Tres began and we continue to grow.

First and foremost the HP recreational and racing segment of the boating industry suffers from a lack of professional structure and conduct. In contrast to what I do in the commercial market the gap appears insurmountable. It is our passion and core values which push us forward.

Imagine the response I would get from a cruise line if I told them they should take on all of their oversight within. Fire the Flag Administration, the classification societies, the third party trainers, etc.

For those who do not seem to understand the functional difference between the Tres Martin Performance Boat School and any other type of instruction it is very simple. Performance structure and skill based. Tres began with an outline of topics, this outline was transformed into structured lesson plans, embedded within the lesson plans are critical skill sets which include human behavior response mechanisms also know as somatic models. In order to truly mitigate situation reaching extremis the brain must be trained to respond instinctually. Unfortunately the human response is usually the absolutely wrong response when a boat gets out of shape and the proper response is counter intuitive.

We do not merely take someone for a boat ride and show them what do to. The classroom session is the primer and initial assessment tool, followed by a short on water instructor demo of critical skill sets followed by prolonged coaching while the students drive. You must pass minimum skill level proficiency in order to become certified under the program. The details of this program will never be posted on public forum or published. The depth of instruction is too valuable and proprietary to reveal in open forum.

If you haven’t figured it out by now this is a measureable program. Who likes measurements better than engineers and lawyers? It remains an absolute mystery to me why the HP boat manufactures have not adopted third party review and oversight similar to what occurs in the commercial market. The idea a boat builder or dealer offers training in house leaves them wide open to additional law suits and litigation. While they may be the absolute best in the operation of their boats because they know them inside and out it certainly does not make their training programs legitimate or properly engineered.

A viable business? A monopoly? Bring it! Yes, there are operators who are very good boat drivers and know exactly what do to get the most out of a boat. But to make it a business? The business plan makes no sense at all. To commit to the proper insurance, advertising, lesson plan development, practice and exercise of theroy, etc. Now just for a moment consider the RISK at which Tres and I not only place our selves but our families. We can never miss! How many Poker Runs do I run boats on? How many days do I just jump in and run a boat at what many consider to be stupid speeds. What would the economic fallout be from just one incident to which we would be involved in? No one else comes close to offering an instructional program with true assessment and measurable results. Tres is committed to safety and no one does a better job in regard to safe operation. While short and direct his core values remain constant. To assume different is completely inappropriate. Internet forums and third party reviews do not reveal character and commitment. Being short and direct is not arrogance.

While I remain completely committed to everything we have done and will continue to bring real safety initiatives to this segment of the boat market I remain absolutely baffled by the lack of demonstrated leadership and professional conduct from the front runners in the market.

We have enabled the insurance industry to glean insight and visibility upon their insured in a way they have never had before, we facilitate boat sales for numerous builders and dealers, we have brought TRUE and ENFORCEABLE safety measurements to organized boating events. Boat sales have been initiated from what we are able to teach students. Yet we still have to fight to get them all to recognize the real difference from what we do and what others offer.

Tank, You of anyone should have a better understanding of this. A $15.00 online state boating program is the equivalent to a driver’s license and our program is equivalent to an advanced driving school or course.

Thanks again for all with support and our acknowledgement to our graduates who are committed to safety, safe operation, and to getting the best performance from their boats.

In regard to which is safer-- V or Cat. I will remain silent and continue to let you all enjoy the discussion. However remember this. Accidents don’t just happen. A chain or sequence of events lead to the incident and to the effects or response to the incident. SPEED alone is rarely if ever a root causal factor to an incident. Speed does however dictate severity of consequence and death usually occurs when these boats become upset at high speed. It will take a few years but our new not for profit will eventually be able to show real numbers and measurements in regard to these incidents which we believe will level the playing field between cats and V's. Presently the data does not support this idea.

I look forward to seeing all I can here in Fort Lauderdale and in Key West. I will be running down on Friday.

Stay Safe!


Great post and very well written, actually read it twice!

Safety between Cats/Vee's is already outlined in the premiums. A 500K V will always be cheaper to insure than a 500K Cat of the same size/HP. The insurance companies have already outlined that Cats are more suceptible to risk/therefore they must be more dangerous. :D
 
I also am not a big fan of monopoly’s

Have any other schools tried to get approved (edit- asking, not arguing) ? I know my life is priceless and yada yada yada but at $1K/day+; and not that it is not worth that much or valuable, however I don't see me going any time soon.

I'd rather spend that $1K in fuel (solo w/vest and lanyard of course) teaching myself. Yea I know- the school pays for itself and I just don't get it and I'm sure some will fire away- I am only speaking the truth...

Continued success to the Tres School; just hope if others wanted in they game they were allowed (with the same criteria to get in).
 
Have any other schools tried to get approved (edit- asking, not arguing) ? I know my life is priceless and yada yada yada but at $1K/day+; and not that it is not worth that much or valuable, however I don't see me going any time soon.

I'd rather spend that $1K in fuel (solo w/vest and lanyard of course) teaching myself. Yea I know- the school pays for itself and I just don't get it and I'm sure some will fire away- I am only speaking the truth...

Continued success to the Tres School; just hope if others wanted in they game they were allowed (with the same criteria to get in).


For the guy that spent 500K on the boat, 25K on the trailer, 20K for insurance, 75K on the truck......3K isn't the issue.

The learning curve maybe a little too steep for the guy that rolls a boat "learning" like those knuckleheads in Bulgaria with the brand new Top Gun! Mark you can't teach yourself this stuff! There isn't a "simulator" or reset button if you fvck up!
 
For the guy that spent 500K on the boat, 25K on the trailer, 20K for insurance, 75K on the truck......3K isn't the issue.

The learning curve maybe a little too steep for the guy that rolls a boat "learning" like those knuckleheads in Bulgaria with the brand new Top Gun! Mark you can't teach yourself this stuff! There isn't a "simulator" or reset button if you fvck up!

I agree on all accounts. Stupid is as stupid does...
 
Have any other schools tried to get approved (edit- asking, not arguing) ? I know my life is priceless and yada yada yada but at $1K/day+; and not that it is not worth that much or valuable, however I don't see me going any time soon.

I'd rather spend that $1K in fuel (solo w/vest and lanyard of course) teaching myself. Yea I know- the school pays for itself and I just don't get it and I'm sure some will fire away- I am only speaking the truth...

Continued success to the Tres School; just hope if others wanted in they game they were allowed (with the same criteria to get in).
No one at this time has the reseach or the Data we have put in. with few enrollments I dont see any insurance companies allowing more to come on when we are not even operating at capacity, and you have no idea of the cost, or the danger Brad and I expose ourself to everytime we are on the water.Teaching yourself could cost you the ultimate price, Its a risk some have not benefitted from.
 
No one at this time has the reseach or the Data we have put in. with few enrollments I dont see any insurance companies allowing more to come on when we are not even operating at capacity, and you have no idea of the cost, or the danger Brad and I expose ourself to everytime we are on the water.Teaching yourself could cost you the ultimate price, Its a risk some have not benefitted from.

I wish you continued success, however "I dont see any inurance copmanies allowing more to come on when we are not even at operating capacity" is where my issue is at.

Just because I disagree with Obama doesn't mean I'm a racist. Just because I disagree with you being the only school doesn't mean I'm not in support of the training.

Just because I'm not with you doesn't mean I'm against you...
 
For the guy that spent 500K on the boat, 25K on the trailer, 20K for insurance, 75K on the truck......3K isn't the issue.

I would so love to take that course....however...trailing on Jupiter and MM's comments...a little competition can be a healthy thing. I have a 16 year, old 35K, 70mph boat that I bought 2 years ago (now worth only 25K thanks to the economy) and have since had to put 25K in unforseen repairs to get back running again (next season). I was in the position of pay to fix it...or walk away and eat the loss. No choice but to steer into the skid and ride it out so to speak. I'm so under money-wise right now that I dock next to Titanic.

For the guy that blew a million or so on his latest toy, the 3k for that course is likely cheaper than his weekend bar tab. 3k in my world is more than my annual budget to run (well..close anyway). Not complaining....I'm just the guy playing on a shoe string budget. I would LOVE to learn all those skills...both for the safety aspect and the fact that I enjoy mastering skills. I have no doubt that course would improve my driving ten-fold. However....until the price comes down, it's just not within the practicalities of my budget.

I hope Tres and Brad fill all their classes in the future...maybe room for another school then. Volume and competition reduce prices....if all those dudes with the million dollar rigs would just cough it up and go....maybe Reagan's old "trickle-down economics" theory will get the prices down to where the average guy can go! :sifone:
 
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