fund razor
Founding Member
But he was so highly praised for his "handling" of the september market problems. Thought maybe all that leadership just leaking out of every pore might be able to "change" something.
I can wait until Jan 20 if I have to.
Headlines
Anyone taking odds on the auto industry bail-out?
- Thread starter DollaBill
- Start date
I can wait until Jan 20 if I have to.
fund razor
Founding Member
Kind of wish Romney was President Elect.
He is providing leadership.
I saw him talking about the problem this morning.
Thanks for the post Nick.
He is providing leadership.
I saw him talking about the problem this morning.
Thanks for the post Nick.
DollaBill
New member
I would have voted for Romney in a heartbeat, but I didn't even get a chance at the primaries. wtf
Once the credit crunch hit prior to the elections that is when it was lights out for McCain and everyone was WISHING that Romney was the man. He could have CRUSHED Obama in the debates. Oh well maybe we will have a chance in 4 more years.... THey should start running any day now if last election is any indication.... :ack2::ack2:
fund razor
Founding Member
Wow.
DollaBill
New member
I'll take Romney on crack over Obama:seeya:
Sea-Dated
Charter Member
Ditto
Playn
New member
wow.......still clueless arent ya.
he's still light years ahead of you isn't he... :03:
Playn
New member
I'm in favor of help if it comes with conditions. There was a post in another forum that pretty much echos my opinion of what needs to happen.
"Concessions by the unions are a form of investment in the well being of the company. Although they already made some concessions in the last round of contract negotiations, it's clear that more must be given to save the companies. I STRONGLY oppose bailouts, however under the following minimum circumstances I will hold my nose and hope for the best:
1. STOP ALL BAILOUTS TO WALL STREET FINANCIAL FIRMS. If we are going to provide assistance to any industry, it should be the manufacturers, who actually create real wealth and do serve a national security service (i.e. produce military equipment in times of war, etc.). The financial sector will solve its own problems just fine without our tax dollars. I think it's starting to become obvious that the bailouts aren't having the desired effect anyway, and I remain very skeptical that they ever will.
2. The US government must make dollar for dollar budget reductions to cover the cost of the bailouts (loans) to the auto industry. There can be no trickery with the federal budget (such as off budget accounting for the costs, etc.). This must be a real budget reduction that can be verified and measured.
3. The executive management and boards of all auto companies that take government loans must resign. They failed in their stewardship of the companies and they must step down so that more competent management can take over.
4. The UAW must take further wage and benefit reductions, perhaps on a permanent basis. This includes retired workers who are receiving pension and health benefits paid by the auto companies. If taxpayers are going to put their skin in the deal, so must the union workers.
5. All non-union staff must take wage and benefit reductions. They have to share the pain with the UAW.
6. The new executive management staff must agree to dramatically reduced salaries and bonuses paid via stock options. This way, if they succeed in turning the company around, they can realize the rewards for their efforts. If they fail, they don't get unjustly enriched. Like the union and non-union workers, these guys need to share the risk and the pain.
7. Outsourcing to foreign countries must be discouraged. I don't think we can prohibit the practice, but we can provide incentives to promote US based production of parts, assembly, etc. to help bring that work back home. Perhaps a formula for reducing the interest rate on the government loans, or some carefully crafted tax benefits. It's not an easy issue to address, but there must be something in the loan package to motivate the auto companies to keep the money in the family, so to speak.
8. DO NOT let the government dictate how the auto companies are to be run. Transparency and oversight is appropriate until the money is fully repaid, but to let the government decide how to manage a private company is just plain insane. Quite honestly, if the government managed these companies, they would have been bankrupt decades ago.
I'd love to see those in Congress who are responsible for this mess lose their jobs, too. But, they won't and I've come to peace with that fact.
These are just the larger points in my plan, and there are obviously numerous other details, but without the above deal points I can't see myself ever supporting the bailouts.
In short, if we truly feel like the loans to the auto industry are as essential as claimed, then we should be willing to make major sacrifices as a nation, and as individuals, to help save the Big 3. If, however, everybody wants a painless solution, then we aren't sincere in our commitment to the cause. There can be no painless solution; there will be the loss of some government services, or reductions in wages/benefits. But, if claims are true that the demise of the auto industry is eminent if the loans aren't provided, then I assume some sacrifices are worthwhile to avoid the utter destruction we are promised if the Big 3 fail. We need to choose the lesser evil, right? Seems like a clear choice to me, if you believe we must save the auto companies."
Quite frankly I'm fed up with all these givaways to everybody. We have done an injustace to our children and grandchildren who will be paying for this missmanagement.
These loans need to be repaid with interest.
To go with the above I would like to see termination of the CEO's without their severance packages.
I want upper management to take a 25% pay cut across the board. No bonuses or golden parachutes if they decide to leave.
Middle management, staff, and labor take a 10% cut across the board. No bonuses or severance if they decide to leave.
Retired auto workers take a 10% reduction in their retirement income. The legacy costs are huge and are a major part of the problem. The days of 30 and out are long gone. If the company come out of this then pay them back in stock.
I'd like to see the UAW "invest" some of their cash in the auto industry as well.
The bottom line is that these companies want the US taxpayer to become an "investor" in their company. If that is going to be the case then there needs to be MAJOR changes top to bottom.
"Concessions by the unions are a form of investment in the well being of the company. Although they already made some concessions in the last round of contract negotiations, it's clear that more must be given to save the companies. I STRONGLY oppose bailouts, however under the following minimum circumstances I will hold my nose and hope for the best:
1. STOP ALL BAILOUTS TO WALL STREET FINANCIAL FIRMS. If we are going to provide assistance to any industry, it should be the manufacturers, who actually create real wealth and do serve a national security service (i.e. produce military equipment in times of war, etc.). The financial sector will solve its own problems just fine without our tax dollars. I think it's starting to become obvious that the bailouts aren't having the desired effect anyway, and I remain very skeptical that they ever will.
2. The US government must make dollar for dollar budget reductions to cover the cost of the bailouts (loans) to the auto industry. There can be no trickery with the federal budget (such as off budget accounting for the costs, etc.). This must be a real budget reduction that can be verified and measured.
3. The executive management and boards of all auto companies that take government loans must resign. They failed in their stewardship of the companies and they must step down so that more competent management can take over.
4. The UAW must take further wage and benefit reductions, perhaps on a permanent basis. This includes retired workers who are receiving pension and health benefits paid by the auto companies. If taxpayers are going to put their skin in the deal, so must the union workers.
5. All non-union staff must take wage and benefit reductions. They have to share the pain with the UAW.
6. The new executive management staff must agree to dramatically reduced salaries and bonuses paid via stock options. This way, if they succeed in turning the company around, they can realize the rewards for their efforts. If they fail, they don't get unjustly enriched. Like the union and non-union workers, these guys need to share the risk and the pain.
7. Outsourcing to foreign countries must be discouraged. I don't think we can prohibit the practice, but we can provide incentives to promote US based production of parts, assembly, etc. to help bring that work back home. Perhaps a formula for reducing the interest rate on the government loans, or some carefully crafted tax benefits. It's not an easy issue to address, but there must be something in the loan package to motivate the auto companies to keep the money in the family, so to speak.
8. DO NOT let the government dictate how the auto companies are to be run. Transparency and oversight is appropriate until the money is fully repaid, but to let the government decide how to manage a private company is just plain insane. Quite honestly, if the government managed these companies, they would have been bankrupt decades ago.
I'd love to see those in Congress who are responsible for this mess lose their jobs, too. But, they won't and I've come to peace with that fact.
These are just the larger points in my plan, and there are obviously numerous other details, but without the above deal points I can't see myself ever supporting the bailouts.
In short, if we truly feel like the loans to the auto industry are as essential as claimed, then we should be willing to make major sacrifices as a nation, and as individuals, to help save the Big 3. If, however, everybody wants a painless solution, then we aren't sincere in our commitment to the cause. There can be no painless solution; there will be the loss of some government services, or reductions in wages/benefits. But, if claims are true that the demise of the auto industry is eminent if the loans aren't provided, then I assume some sacrifices are worthwhile to avoid the utter destruction we are promised if the Big 3 fail. We need to choose the lesser evil, right? Seems like a clear choice to me, if you believe we must save the auto companies."
Quite frankly I'm fed up with all these givaways to everybody. We have done an injustace to our children and grandchildren who will be paying for this missmanagement.
These loans need to be repaid with interest.
To go with the above I would like to see termination of the CEO's without their severance packages.
I want upper management to take a 25% pay cut across the board. No bonuses or golden parachutes if they decide to leave.
Middle management, staff, and labor take a 10% cut across the board. No bonuses or severance if they decide to leave.
Retired auto workers take a 10% reduction in their retirement income. The legacy costs are huge and are a major part of the problem. The days of 30 and out are long gone. If the company come out of this then pay them back in stock.
I'd like to see the UAW "invest" some of their cash in the auto industry as well.
The bottom line is that these companies want the US taxpayer to become an "investor" in their company. If that is going to be the case then there needs to be MAJOR changes top to bottom.
phragle
Charter Member
I see the reasoning, but I am just uncomfortable with sacking the retiree's.. they had a signed contract with the mfg's they came to work and did their jobs over the years. they wholly fulfilled their end of the deal. whether or not it was a good deal is irrelevant. If you make a deal with someone for labor at an agreed upon compensation, that labor obligation is fulfilled, you pay up. how would it go over if I ordered a new outerlimits, they built it to my specifications, I used the hell out of it, then said " I'm having a tough time financially, so I am only going to pay you 15 cent's on the dollar, sorry guys, but it's a tough world, Oh and I need every other boat owner in the country to send me some money because the motors and drives need rebuilt now an I don't have any money" I'm sorry if the big 3 can' afford to pay the retirement obligations and remain profitable, but they are obligations none the less, time to fold, sell assets and put the proceeds in trust to meet the obligations of retired workers.
fund razor
Founding Member
No.... Laughing Cat and Catmando are much, much smarter, powerful, more connected, and influential than "mutt."
socalstone
New member
I say no to the Big3 bailout. Just like I said no to the Financial Bailout.
I don't even think bailout is the right term. All they will do at best is buy some time.
Then fail later, file chapter 11, get there chit in order and then sink or swim.
Why not let it happen now and save the money? where does it end?
Reminds me of a friend 20 years ago. He got in over his head in credit card debt.
His Dad bailed him out.
2 years later it happened again. Dad bailed him again.
Hard to believe but it happened a 3rd time. His dad said no bail out.
Guess what? he learned!
He filed bankruptcy. Cut back his spending. Got back on his feet by himself.
It wasn't easy but he did it.
Don't mean to sound callous. I know it will all get much worse before it gets better. just my 2cents
I don't even think bailout is the right term. All they will do at best is buy some time.
Then fail later, file chapter 11, get there chit in order and then sink or swim.
Why not let it happen now and save the money? where does it end?
Reminds me of a friend 20 years ago. He got in over his head in credit card debt.
His Dad bailed him out.
2 years later it happened again. Dad bailed him again.
Hard to believe but it happened a 3rd time. His dad said no bail out.
Guess what? he learned!
He filed bankruptcy. Cut back his spending. Got back on his feet by himself.
It wasn't easy but he did it.
Don't mean to sound callous. I know it will all get much worse before it gets better. just my 2cents
Cash Bar
Charter Member
pullmytrigger
Charter Member
Oh Goooooogle it......ok........and oh yeah everything thats written on a contract goes down exactly as its written in the real world.........oooookayyyyyy:boxing_smiley:
And sorry......I cant comment whatsoever about what goes on at Ford, I have no idea....(btw another common misconception.....that all UAW contracts are rubber stamps of each other....theres signifigant differences).......
I called my bro tonight but he's working nights (building Impalas) but the last ime I talked to him about it he said they get 2 10min breaks per shift and a 19 or something minute lunch per shift, thats it......virtually no bathroom breaks......why?, because that would require a relief man (to do your job while the line keeps moving) and their isnt any because theres not even close to enough for Everyone to get a break.......in the end....you hold it.......I'll call him tomorrow during the day and get the real deal......you know.....just so you know.......
Cash Bar
Charter Member
Just a question, as I have no idea.
Do the Canadian and US plants work under the same UAW guidelines?
Maybe that would make a difference.
pullmytrigger
Charter Member
Oh and back on the sales front.......
Like...how can a company that can be so dead on the mark and leading edge with the Corvette not sell anything else other than big trucks??
The retro thing......GM comes out with the HHR like 5 yrs after the PT Cruiser.....missed that boat.
Ford leads the way with the new retro Mustang, now the Challenger is out.....are we ever going to see that Camaro?????......its STILL not out......not exactly leading the pack
Like...how can a company that can be so dead on the mark and leading edge with the Corvette not sell anything else other than big trucks??
The retro thing......GM comes out with the HHR like 5 yrs after the PT Cruiser.....missed that boat.
Ford leads the way with the new retro Mustang, now the Challenger is out.....are we ever going to see that Camaro?????......its STILL not out......not exactly leading the pack
phragle
Charter Member
that was the same guys that designed the aztec, they were drunk at the bar, saw a pt cruiser in the lot and said "we need an answer to that", the other one replied "coming up with something original will cut into our drinking time" to which the first said " naw, we take an out of focus pik of it and call it a day" these are the same people that designed that fugly suv that looked like a minivan with a truck nose stuck on it.
the only thing worse than these designs is that fact that someone approved them for production...
boatme
Charter Member
We should NOT bail out the car companies
I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.
I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward
The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed
I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them
Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand
We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface
Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple
Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position
1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions
Non of this will change by handing them money
Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys
We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)
We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys
American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money
Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!
My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?
We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it
If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.
This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them
We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.
I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years
The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money
All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes
By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need
Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it
I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.
I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating
I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet
I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.
I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward
The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed
I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them
Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand
We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface
Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple
Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position
1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions
Non of this will change by handing them money
Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys
We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)
We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys
American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money
Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!
My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?
We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it
If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.
This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them
We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.
I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years
The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money
All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes
By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need
Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it
I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.
I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating
I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet
