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AMF canopy upgrade?
- Thread starter skaterdave
- Start date
skaterdave
New member
ahh don't wanna bother marc. just thought you guys could give a quick explanation of what your doing?
It was cool reading about how Doug Wright was modifing the Fury boat and the changes they were making following the new Class 1 and X-cat canopy rule changes. Just wondering if you guys are following the same guidelines, since it seems like none of the US orgs (opa,oss,sbi or propa/apba) have done anything to update the safety of these boats?
It was cool reading about how Doug Wright was modifing the Fury boat and the changes they were making following the new Class 1 and X-cat canopy rule changes. Just wondering if you guys are following the same guidelines, since it seems like none of the US orgs (opa,oss,sbi or propa/apba) have done anything to update the safety of these boats?
Maximus
Charter Member / Competitor
Dave,
There are many facet's the the upgrades we are employing on Miss Geico and Talki-n -Trash. Remember these are retrofit upgrades . The proper way to do this is a full redesign of the entire safety cell (which we are doing). One hard lesson we have learned in Offshore Racing is that when you think your safe ...your not. Never stop looking for ways to enhance your safety program.
I applaud Vinny and Jimmy for looking at ways to enhance their cockpit and hope my fellow racers follow in their footsteps. I hope we have more bring their boats for an evaluation before the season starts.
We have employed considerable resources to understand the "dynamic"forces we are dealing with. I can assure you that VERY few people truly understand dynamic water forces and their characteristics. Every step forward seems to open another set of challenges. Many builders simply look the other way so as not to admit that their cockpits are out dated and dangerous, considering the evolution of speed and tight turning courses this is another tragedy in the making. . One key point that we have uncovered utilizing information from various military programs is that for several milliseconds water is an immovable force. We cannot simply rely on a canopy that gives to pressure as the intrusion of water then becomes the the killer. The best way to grasp this concept is to slap your hand as hard as you can against the water next time you are in the pool. While a crude analogy it will help reinforce the concept of strength and dispersal of pressure. What you can clearly see from the high strength carbon mask are several pressure dispersing rails. Highpoint that will break the pressure line first. We strive to keep water from entering the cockpit. We are utilizing shapes to optimize our safety envelope and overcome the massive dynamic forces we face.
Another lesson we have learned from the Unlimited Hydro Racers is to utilize similar pressure diffusing diversion modules surrounding the cockpit (under the deck). Feel free to contact Dave Villwock to inquire what happens when these are not employed. Simple fixes and lessons already learned that seem to be overlooked by most of todays builders. The modules divert high pressure water flow away from the pilots underneath the deck. They should surround the cockpit.
As I mentioned keeping all water out of the cockpit is optimal and in my opinion what every builder should be striving for. Any water incursion can kill and simple engineering can raise the current offshore fleet's water repellent level two fold. Cutting holes that are not water tight in the liner of cockpit cell is a big problem and should be avoided , the slow fill is could be just as dangerous as the quick one if your unconscious.
Most any fire fighter or EMT will be able to discuss and probably firmly state that the secondary acceleration is the most deadly in a high impact crash (your body hitting the seatbelt or cockpit roof). Employing the latest NASCAR/GT circuit safety restraints properly set up Hans devices and DRAGBOAT helmet air systems and ratcheting belts is where we are at this point. Stabilizing your legs so they are not broken should they hit the dash. Remember a super cat is doing 150 mph a turbine cat 180+. Take your car out to a flat road and run it up to this speed if you need a reminder of the velocity we are talking about.
Jerry Gilbreath pounded this into my head.. "Ultimately You and only You are responsible for the safety systems operational on your boat. Never take anyones word" , check it yourself.
Our hatches are now made to the same specs as the bottom of our boat and pinned on all four sides creating a system that builds strength back into the shape of the canopy and ensuring no corners raise when the boat twists. Those parts made from aeronautical grade matériels by an FAA rated shop.
There is more if you want to stick around next time you stop by the shop.
One last thing. The marine/offshore racing industry has a habit of gossiping and trashing everyone and anyone that does, try or innovates. I expect to hear the windbags run their mouths about what will work and what won't . When asked what they are doing different... I bet it is the same old story. As many of you know Gary Stray , Scotty B and myself are fathers and take the safety of our boat as serious as the performance, Haggin as given us a mandate to make the boat as safe as we possibly can. So we are we digging deep with every new concept, watching videos and reviewing most of the old crash photos. Any racer is welcome to stop by our race shop to discuss their safety program and ways to enhance what they have. Most upgrades can be done for less than a set of props. We are always open to brainstorming, new matériels and new ideas.
We will presenting these basic upgrades to Smitty so he can begin implementing them with OPA in the form of suggestions then ultimately rules.
The bottom line is we are tired of losing friends from the same mistakes over and over again and we are doing something about it.
There are many facet's the the upgrades we are employing on Miss Geico and Talki-n -Trash. Remember these are retrofit upgrades . The proper way to do this is a full redesign of the entire safety cell (which we are doing). One hard lesson we have learned in Offshore Racing is that when you think your safe ...your not. Never stop looking for ways to enhance your safety program.
I applaud Vinny and Jimmy for looking at ways to enhance their cockpit and hope my fellow racers follow in their footsteps. I hope we have more bring their boats for an evaluation before the season starts.
We have employed considerable resources to understand the "dynamic"forces we are dealing with. I can assure you that VERY few people truly understand dynamic water forces and their characteristics. Every step forward seems to open another set of challenges. Many builders simply look the other way so as not to admit that their cockpits are out dated and dangerous, considering the evolution of speed and tight turning courses this is another tragedy in the making. . One key point that we have uncovered utilizing information from various military programs is that for several milliseconds water is an immovable force. We cannot simply rely on a canopy that gives to pressure as the intrusion of water then becomes the the killer. The best way to grasp this concept is to slap your hand as hard as you can against the water next time you are in the pool. While a crude analogy it will help reinforce the concept of strength and dispersal of pressure. What you can clearly see from the high strength carbon mask are several pressure dispersing rails. Highpoint that will break the pressure line first. We strive to keep water from entering the cockpit. We are utilizing shapes to optimize our safety envelope and overcome the massive dynamic forces we face.
Another lesson we have learned from the Unlimited Hydro Racers is to utilize similar pressure diffusing diversion modules surrounding the cockpit (under the deck). Feel free to contact Dave Villwock to inquire what happens when these are not employed. Simple fixes and lessons already learned that seem to be overlooked by most of todays builders. The modules divert high pressure water flow away from the pilots underneath the deck. They should surround the cockpit.
As I mentioned keeping all water out of the cockpit is optimal and in my opinion what every builder should be striving for. Any water incursion can kill and simple engineering can raise the current offshore fleet's water repellent level two fold. Cutting holes that are not water tight in the liner of cockpit cell is a big problem and should be avoided , the slow fill is could be just as dangerous as the quick one if your unconscious.
Most any fire fighter or EMT will be able to discuss and probably firmly state that the secondary acceleration is the most deadly in a high impact crash (your body hitting the seatbelt or cockpit roof). Employing the latest NASCAR/GT circuit safety restraints properly set up Hans devices and DRAGBOAT helmet air systems and ratcheting belts is where we are at this point. Stabilizing your legs so they are not broken should they hit the dash. Remember a super cat is doing 150 mph a turbine cat 180+. Take your car out to a flat road and run it up to this speed if you need a reminder of the velocity we are talking about.
Jerry Gilbreath pounded this into my head.. "Ultimately You and only You are responsible for the safety systems operational on your boat. Never take anyones word" , check it yourself.
Our hatches are now made to the same specs as the bottom of our boat and pinned on all four sides creating a system that builds strength back into the shape of the canopy and ensuring no corners raise when the boat twists. Those parts made from aeronautical grade matériels by an FAA rated shop.
There is more if you want to stick around next time you stop by the shop.
One last thing. The marine/offshore racing industry has a habit of gossiping and trashing everyone and anyone that does, try or innovates. I expect to hear the windbags run their mouths about what will work and what won't . When asked what they are doing different... I bet it is the same old story. As many of you know Gary Stray , Scotty B and myself are fathers and take the safety of our boat as serious as the performance, Haggin as given us a mandate to make the boat as safe as we possibly can. So we are we digging deep with every new concept, watching videos and reviewing most of the old crash photos. Any racer is welcome to stop by our race shop to discuss their safety program and ways to enhance what they have. Most upgrades can be done for less than a set of props. We are always open to brainstorming, new matériels and new ideas.
We will presenting these basic upgrades to Smitty so he can begin implementing them with OPA in the form of suggestions then ultimately rules.
The bottom line is we are tired of losing friends from the same mistakes over and over again and we are doing something about it.
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Offshore Ginger
New member
Just by chance do they have a web site and maximus in you opinion who are the manufacturers who are failing to meet all saftey guidelines and standards if there are any . Hey guys , not that it means anything in the world of offshore racing but did you know that all drag boat capsule drivers are required to have full face shield helment's with air supply and i gotta say that Skater / Douglas marine builds one hell of a canopy .
boostbros
New member
scotty you really need to get the facts out on here many guys love speed but have no idea of the increadable forces involved we really need to show how much force is really involved for example water pressure in a water pickup tube is almost 500 psi at 180 thats why hoses come off or blow. its an absolute must at this point to wire up a boat remote control mythbusters style and flip it at over 180 and measure g loads on the test dummys its really easy to get that speed with any cat hull with a couple of timed out jets using thrust to get to speed the old ones are cheap too (they suck as a snow blower they turn the snow black) the sport really needs to prove a few new designs before we end up with a undamaged hull with pumps running but the crew dead g loads are a very slippery slope thats why russian ejection seats were so dangerious my buddy disables his in the migs because the g loads are often not survivable
Maximus
Charter Member / Competitor
Offshore ginger, You've been around a while and seen too many tragedies. many basic lessons in the The Lavin guidelines have been dismissed or forgotten. Look at the comment as a challenge to all builders to re-evaluate their current cockpit. This was not a slam against any builder in particular because we can take most any cockpit on the market and find significant areas for improvement - In OUR opinion. Only ego's and short memories prevent them from taking the next step. The ones that are actively seeking ways to protect their customers will sleep well at night.
As I mentioned above we are moving to the Drag boat full face system in the Miss GEICO.
As I mentioned above we are moving to the Drag boat full face system in the Miss GEICO.
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Offshore Ginger
New member
Funny thing , that this thread was started about this topic and the reason is .................we just might have something in common on this subject because the last drag boat person i talked with from another site stated the same thing to me about being able to sleep at nite knowing that everybody went home safe and sound after the day is over .:seeya: Maximus , i did not feel that you were trying to slam any builder in particular just asking questions .
Maximus
Charter Member / Competitor
One other thing the builders that strive for the above will avoid and that is the Three Phone Calls All of which will ruin their year.
# 1 Theres been an Accident
# 2 My Loved one is gone, How could you ...
# 3 Hello , This is Mike Allweiss
I've recieved several calls about cockpit safety reviews from this thread already so we've already 'done good'
# 1 Theres been an Accident
# 2 My Loved one is gone, How could you ...
# 3 Hello , This is Mike Allweiss
I've recieved several calls about cockpit safety reviews from this thread already so we've already 'done good'
K
kvschoolboard
Guest
there are several company's now who are designing these new safety cocoon capsules, we have also worked with engineers on our design, these new designs will in fact save lives
Offshore Ginger
New member
Excuse me , people have questions and just because you have recieved several phone calls your going to call it quits , i beg your pardon and racing is racing and with that in mind why did you bother to go in length about this subject in all of your posts if you are going to call it ....quits ? Sorry....... if i seem rude and please remember that people ask questions because they would like answers or just want to know .
skaterdave
New member
Marc, I think it's a good move to make these types of improvements but from what I saw first hand was a concentration on the mask and the "above the deck-line" canopy structure. After seeing the damage to this same boat last year my concerns are that the rest of the cockpit structure is still being neglected.
What good is 1" of solid carbon fiber and 3/4" winshield over your head if its glassed to a cockpit liner that consists of 1" foam core material with about an 1/8" of glass on each side. This is what puzzles me? In regards to Talkintrash, from what i was told there was no talk of strenghting the front and rear bulkheads and the sides that make up the liner.
With the unfortunate Victory accident, the boat entered the water ass-first and upside down and it appears to me the water pressure peeled the canopy off and pushed the rear bulkhead forward. And at at speeds far below what your doing. I'm glad to hear you guys are addressing the "rigging" holes and cutouts finally, since this also seems to be a point of water entry.
Next, what your saying is that your "military" consultants are designing these changes, are they giving you actual structural draws and laminate schedules to follow? It's good to get outside sources but are these people giving you their theories or are you actually using real life test data when making these modifications. Have you guys make test panels and had them tested to see if these will actually hold up for what they're going to built for?
The Mask idea is good but how come your not vacuum bagging. Plus it seems like its removable and not glassed and bagged directly to the existing canopy? Coscker (Mystic) and Doug Wright seem to be vacuum bagging the masks on to the canopy and there by not having any lips or edges for the water to get a hold of.
Like a few others here have pointed out, I'm suprised that with the amount of money some of these guys are worth that a two-man canopy/pod hasn't been designed, tested and mandated uniformally across the board. it seems the drag and hydro guys are much farther along safety wise.
What good is 1" of solid carbon fiber and 3/4" winshield over your head if its glassed to a cockpit liner that consists of 1" foam core material with about an 1/8" of glass on each side. This is what puzzles me? In regards to Talkintrash, from what i was told there was no talk of strenghting the front and rear bulkheads and the sides that make up the liner.
With the unfortunate Victory accident, the boat entered the water ass-first and upside down and it appears to me the water pressure peeled the canopy off and pushed the rear bulkhead forward. And at at speeds far below what your doing. I'm glad to hear you guys are addressing the "rigging" holes and cutouts finally, since this also seems to be a point of water entry.
Next, what your saying is that your "military" consultants are designing these changes, are they giving you actual structural draws and laminate schedules to follow? It's good to get outside sources but are these people giving you their theories or are you actually using real life test data when making these modifications. Have you guys make test panels and had them tested to see if these will actually hold up for what they're going to built for?
The Mask idea is good but how come your not vacuum bagging. Plus it seems like its removable and not glassed and bagged directly to the existing canopy? Coscker (Mystic) and Doug Wright seem to be vacuum bagging the masks on to the canopy and there by not having any lips or edges for the water to get a hold of.
Like a few others here have pointed out, I'm suprised that with the amount of money some of these guys are worth that a two-man canopy/pod hasn't been designed, tested and mandated uniformally across the board. it seems the drag and hydro guys are much farther along safety wise.
Offshore Ginger
New member
Dave :iagree:
Maximus
Charter Member / Competitor
Dave,
Jimmy and Vinny's project is very detailed and thought out. You were at the shop on Tuesday this past week and the opportunity to discuss the project with Gary Stray. You are welcome to come in at any time. . What you saw "first hand" was the beginning of the project. You are not informed on the scope of the entire project. Please contact Jimmy or Vinny to talk about what they may be doing specifically
As for Skater's existing cockpit schedule and design you can weigh in personally with J&V and Peter and make the appropriate changes when they build their next boat.
Our Lockheed Martin team consists of PhD' MIT grads that have run programs within the F-22 fighter jet program to Deep submergence vehicles capable of handling 3000-10,000 ft of water pressure as well as High speed water landing craft. Not only are we discussing laminate schedules but verifying design and velocities. We have spent countless hours discussing these variables and best case solutions to these challenges when working on a retrofit. We work with the Hydro teams and other high speed crash experts. As I said Yes we are working on a safety pod.
I 'm not sure where your going with this but I'm not interested in entertaining you on a public forum.
You know what to do if your serious about being part of the solution to make TnT safer.
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
I understand the US NAVY in some of their covert operations push large boats out of the back of those big cargo planes,,,,,Is their any results and info that might help everyone in the marine industry available to the public.??
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