103 in an svl ?

[Ratickle]

Fastest growing???? One new boat in 10 years basically.

Fastest growing based on new and old teams showing up to race. Other than the GPS classes in OPA, there has been none where 7 or 8 boats show up to compete against each other at events. And even though there is only the one new boat, how many others are in the works?

 

[Ratickle]

The new SCL wooped Amsoil last wk in MC what do we do now start adding weight because Grant did his homework and tested and tested somemore..

I was surprised. Anyone talk to the teams after. It was impressive.

Gary has dominated SS for yrs so let penalize him also for being good at what he does. .

Kyler is giving Gary fits right now. Another impressive new team.

 

[skaterdave]

SBI has rules in place they havnt changed in yrs and new or old if they fit in the specs lets race. You cant change weight and rpm and on and on. We always want to penalize a boat that is 100% legal and faster then the rest......
Gary has dominated SS for yrs so let penalize him also for being good at what he does. Ryan also runs SS and you dont see him bitching because he is getting beat he goes out and trys hard every race and gives it 100% thats a sportsman. Racing is about winning and about being fast some are just better at it then others.If it talant or money it is what it is and that will never change. Instead of penalizing the faster boats let try and get the boat in the back of the pack up front.

frank, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't sbi add weight to DW's 32s over the 30 spectres and skaters for exactly what your talking about? i thought it was 400 lbs more for the DW, back when the 32's first came out.

 

[Pete B]

The new SCL wooped Amsoil last wk in MC.

The Stihl team for one did NOT just get on the racing bandwagon, JR and Grant have a lot of time together in a boat! JR and Grant are a great team regardless, because the prepare, same goes for Teague and Whittier, they come to a race to do just that RACE. Grant's rigging is top shelf. It is certainly good to see a team take the challenge to Amsoil. It will make for some great action that will have the fans talking! The world s in KW will be a battle in SCL!

 

[XtremeRacing]

Dave,

I'm not 100% sure and maybe Ryan could jump in and anwser better then i can. But my understanding is they did make some weight changes on 1 boat to try and help them. But my point was they didnt change the rules for the rest of the boats. They didnt penalize the faster boats they tried to help the slower boats. The same thing they r doing in Super Cat with War Paint, they didnt change the class rules that r in the book. They voted as a class to try and make changes to a boat that is older and not as fast.

 

[Ratickle]

Dave,

I'm not 100% sure and maybe Ryan could jump in and anwser better then i can. But my understanding is they did make some weight changes on 1 boat to try and help them. But my point was they didnt change the rules for the rest of the boats. They didnt penalize the faster boats they tried to help the slower boats. The same thing they r doing in Super Cat with War Paint, they didnt change the class rules that r in the book. They voted as a class to try and make changes to a boat that is older and not as fast.

So wouldn't the increased RPM Smitty suggested do that same thing? My guess right now is give IMCO and 104 that setup against Doc and I'd bet against the Fountain. I may lose the bet, but that would be where I'd put my $.

 

[XtremeRacing]

My thought is if the new boat r built to the rule book and legal so be it. Posible look to help the older boat by making them run with less weight, dont penalize a legal boat to slow them down. They want to change the rule book, by having new gear rules, weight , drive height and so on. To me thats a little different then tring to work with a team that needs help. If the rules dont change the guys that r building boat know what they are building, I know I would be pissed if I built a legal boat and had to make changes to slow me down. Be cheaper and easier to buy a slow boat.

If you look at it that way the guys with the faster boats wont be pissed because they are not be penalized, and the boat that r getting the help sure as hell wont be pissed. Sounds like everyone is happy.

 

[Ratickle]

My thought is if the new boat r built to the rule book and legal so be it. Posible look to help the older boat by making them run with less weight, dont penalize a legal boat to slow them down. They want to change the rule book, by having new gear rules, weight , drive height and so on. To me thats a little different then tring to work with a team that needs help. If the rules dont change the guys that r building boat know what they are building, I know I would be pissed if I built a legal boat and had to make changes to slow me down. Be cheaper and easier to buy a slow boat.

I pretty much agree, less weight or more RPM. But, I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of feeling the new Fountain, if it matches the restrictions on hull design placed by the rules of it matching the 33, is as dominant as some think. It wasn't fully in the lead when the others were run off the course in St Clair, and three of the other boats would have been inside them without that. A very ugly accident was avoided by some good teams paying attention. I think Dunbar's, IMCO, Miklos, Bruce, and Typhoon all are within a hair's breath of the Fountain depending on conditions. A little less weight for them, or a little more RPM, and it's game on I think.

 

[imco offshore]

SBI has rules in place they havnt changed in yrs and new or old if they fit in the specs lets race. You cant change weight and rpm and on and on. We always want to penalize a boat that is 100% legal and faster then the rest. Race on the course not the rule book. The new SCL wooped Amsoil last wk in MC what do we do now start adding weight because Grant did his homework and tested and tested somemore. Gary has dominated SS for yrs so let penalize him also for being good at what he does. Ryan also runs SS and you dont see him bitching because he is getting beat he goes out and trys hard every race and gives it 100% thats a sportsman. Racing is about winning and about being fast some are just better at it then others.If it talant or money it is what it is and that will never change. Instead of penalizing the faster boats let try and get the boat in the back of the pack up front.

Frank ,, we all know another new boat is going to beat the last new boat ,,that was my point,,,,were talking about 12 yr old boats,here,,,,we don,t have a problem with the boat !! just one driver,,,,and someone using parity to keep competition somewhat close,,,,,you all think offshore is like NASCAR
thats a joke,,,,,NASCAR has DIFFERENT restrictions plates for each auto maker ( 4 ) WHY !! knowone said a 12 yr newer boat shouldn't go faster,,were looking to race side by side ,,remember your post were here to put on a show,,, ALL auto racing have parity ,s in place,,, the ORG,S only care about boat count ,,not competition,,,when was the last time any one of the ASKED " HOW CAN I PUT ON A GOOD RACE" ,,,I,LL ANSWER ,,,NEVER,,,instead they ask WHO,S GOING ,,how many will that give me? LOOK ,,I know that is offshore racing ,,Racers that grew up racing other motorsports and then come into offshore, love and want competition,,most and new offshore racers who grew up in offshore ,,don,t care about competition just a checkered to take home ,,even if they don,t race against anyone,,,why would you build a 42' boat and put in some 1200 hp motors knowing their is no one to race,?? then they go home to their town and miraculously " their were about 30 or 40 boats their,,,,," they forget to say their were ,,,,30 or 40 classes...I know it,s not going to change ,,,so we just keep putting lipstick on the pig and hope for the best ,,someone will always kiss it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Ratickle]

,,,so we just keep putting lipstick on the pig and hope for the best ,,someone will always kiss it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:sifone:

 

[Mike A.]

Fastest growing based on new and old teams showing up to race. Other than the GPS classes in OPA, there has been none where 7 or 8 boats show up to compete against each other at events. And even though there is only the one new boat, how many others are in the works?

Aaaaah, ok, now I understand your concept of "growth". I thought we were using the standard dictionary definition! :bump:

History shows that permitting new improved technology boats to race unchecked destroys successful existing classes. That is happening here and not coincidentally, it was predicted months ago. None of you have demonstrated why it will be different this time. On the contrary, people who do not own SVL boats come here and say to those that do, "Shut up and take your ass whoopin' or quit." Why should they? They want to have fun racing themselves.

As for the new boats supposedly being built, well, great. (I would point out, however, that history is also replete with these proclamations of "new boats are comin', new boats are comin'", only to be followed up with tumbleweeds and excuses like, "well, I stopped building mine because the rules are all screwed up, or the television does not cover my class so I lost my sponsor," blah, blah, blah.)

Again, if new boats are coming let the new teams work with P1 or whoever to create rules and a tech enforcement process. Meanwhile, if the current "vintage" SVL's want to keep racing for the next few years let 'em do it on their terms. If you wind up with more boats racing then the sport benefits. Period.

 

[mdkeywest]

Frank ,, we all know another new boat is going to beat the last new boat ,,that was my point,,,,were talking about 12 yr old boats,here,,,,we don,t have a problem with the boat !! just one driver,,,,and someone using parity to keep competition somewhat close,,,,,you all think offshore is like NASCAR
thats a joke,,,,,NASCAR has DIFFERENT restrictions plates for each auto maker ( 4 ) WHY !! knowone said a 12 yr newer boat shouldn't go faster,,were looking to race side by side ,,remember your post were here to put on a show,,, ALL auto racing have parity ,s in place,,, the ORG,S only care about boat count ,,not competition,,,when was the last time any one of the ASKED " HOW CAN I PUT ON A GOOD RACE" ,,,I,LL ANSWER ,,,NEVER,,,instead they ask WHO,S GOING ,,how many will that give me? LOOK ,,I know that is offshore racing ,,Racers that grew up racing other motorsports and then come into offshore, love and want competition,,most and new offshore racers who grew up in offshore ,,don,t care about competition just a checkered to take home ,,even if they don,t race against anyone,,,why would you build a 42' boat and put in some 1200 hp motors knowing their is no one to race,?? then they go home to their town and miraculously " their were about 30 or 40 boats their,,,,," they forget to say their were ,,,,30 or 40 classes...I know it,s not going to change ,,,so we just keep putting lipstick on the pig and hope for the best ,,someone will always kiss it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:boxing_smiley: I like this guy :cheers2:

 

[Ratickle]

Aaaaah, ok, now I understand your concept of "growth". I thought we were using the standard dictionary definition! :bump:

Naw, I'm not an attorney.....:sifone:


I still think the group is on the right track. There has been more discussion about this class than all of the others put together this year. Why?????

I think there are 16 of the existing hulls out there that would fall into the current group. There may actually be a couple more. But, it was my understanding, for this year, all of the existing hulls that had ever raced within the class were Grandfathered in, with any changes to those hulls prior to this season also being grandfathered in. Everything else was to be under the existing, current, OSS class rules for any new changes or new boats. I don't believe that has changed.

 

[MANITIE]

My main concern is that the current SVL rules stay in place...
With the SV Class..it went south when #6'S were added( and diffeant gears could be run not avilable in the Bravos)...decks were cut down and so on...it was a nerver ending thing..
If the current SVL rules stay as now..and are enforced:
Bravo drive
ITS or Imco extention box
1:50 gears
sealed 525's
no modification to the hull at all both with no bottom changes and no cutting down decks..
weight limits
no specail one off props...
And the rules are the rules...

Then will the Fountains still get faster...Yes but not so drastically as they did in SV....

I thought earlier in the year the SVL guys did not care how fast the Fountain was...and they knew that they would not be able to compete with the new tech of a SVL....they welcomed in the new compitition..

What is it...one dirver that is causing the split or the boat...
The boat was voted in as legal....thats done..
If you have a problem with a driver then take it up with the Orgs...and let them decide...but if you do, you need respect the decesion the Org makes and go back to racing...not if this driver is out there will go start our new class..

If you read this hole thread...and look at the whole problem it comes down to the rules were not followed on everyone...
The old SVL...modified there hulls...can not do in the rules...
Not every teams engines are to spec to rules...can not do...
A new boat was built without the proper stages for a new boat to be allowed....can not do per rule book...but was voted on as to let them in anyways and was found legal...
Some teams have a problem with a guys aggressive driving..there is a process on how to go about that...but once the decesion is make by the Org...you should respect that and go back to racing...

Mike A has stated to granfather your boats in...even though the rules were broke to modifie the hulls...that was the first problem....and the teams with engines that are not to spec should have to pay to have them brought back to spec....

Some teams are saying the SVL Fountain is find running in the Class..others are saying its the driver...what really is it...
I have not heard either OPA or SBI changed the SVL rules...the rules are still the same...the only thing I heard was if the rules were enforced that only 3 or 4 teams would pass...

 

[Ratickle]

With the SV Class..it went south when #6'S were added( and diffeant gears could be run not avilable in the Bravos...

It also hurt a bunch when the cheating started. That's why I was shocked when Smitty brought up the hacked boxes. I really thought that had ended with the tech processes used now.

I still think the #6's should be allowed, but only with the one gear ratio. I think it would be interesting racing. And, I believe over the course of a couple seasons, the expense is about equal. After that, the 6 is a better deal. again, these are just my opinions.

 

[MANITIE]

If you were running a racing Org today...and you had to explain the problem is with the SVL Class...
What do you think you would say was the problem and were it went wrong?
And why is this even a problem today?

 

[MANITIE]

It also hurt a bunch when the cheating started. That's why I was shocked when Smitty brought up the hacked boxes. I really thought that had ended with the tech processes used now.

I still think the #6's should be allowed, but only with the one gear ratio. I think it would be interesting racing. And, I believe over the course of a couple seasons, the expense is about equal. After that, the 6 is a better deal. again, these are just my opinions.

The one thing you have to understand with the #6's
1. Cost
2. The advatages it has over the Bravo...

When we ran against David Knight in there 42 in a big water race in Diana Beach...he told me they just left the throttles wide open and let the drives bark...the 525's would not hurt the 6's..but Craig ws working his butt off feathering the trottles with my Bravo's...there are a lot of advantages with the 6's..
But if its going to be a cost efficent class..to convert your boat from a bravo to a #6 is going to cost you stupid money for these older boat to have it done..
and then we have not even got into the cost and advantage of the clever props on the 6's

 

[Ratickle]

If you were running a racing Org today...and you had to explain the problem is with the SVL Class...
What do you think you would say was the problem and were it went wrong?
And why is this even a problem today?

It went wrong when they did not put in writing everything they discussed over the winter in a rule book and have everyone sign it to abide by it. They should still do that, and let the Fountain run in the class if it meets the tech rules as they were discussed. It just needs to be fully teched. As I understood it, all of the old boats were grandfathered in with all of the hull modifications made to them up to that agreement being okay.

It was a very large effort by all of the teams to accomplish what they did. Now that it is in the limelight, everyone wants a piece. Especially Fountain with Reggie at the helm.

Mike may be right. I'm not completely sure. I'm waiting for some more input from Wil on this.

 

[MANITIE]

It also hurt a bunch when the cheating started. That's why I was shocked when Smitty brought up the hacked boxes.

That blows my mined....this is not spec racing...
Thats why I can only laugh when some guys are saying Fountain is cheating...and then you hear of all the rules that were broken with other teams...

In my eyes...this is why racers should not be running a class...no offence guys...but do see were the problem started....

Did you see this kind of stuff in APBA LLC in F1 and F2...even in SV...
I still remember when the Skater Vee move its strakes and after the race...it did not pass insection.....DQ...and was not going to be legal till they moved them back...

 

[Mike A.]

Naw, I'm not an attorney.....:sifone:


I still think the group is on the right track. There has been more discussion about this class than all of the others put together this year. Why?????

I think there are 16 of the existing hulls out there that would fall into the current group. There may actually be a couple more. But, it was my understanding, for this year, all of the existing hulls that had ever raced within the class were Grandfathered in, with any changes to those hulls prior to this season also being grandfathered in. Everything else was to be under the existing, current, OSS class rules for any new changes or new boats. I don't believe that has changed.

Exactly my point. Let the vintage boats lock in their own rules. There is a better chance of growing that class by allowing the original manufacturers like Phantom, Extreme, Activator, and Lavey, to build new boats that are identical to the old ones then to allow the Fountain free for all that is happening now and fixing to get worse.

If there really is this serious demand for new technology boats then great, create the right rules platform from scratch now and do not worry about trying to shove square pegs into round holes. If the new technology class is really a good idea then it should not need old boats to cream. Win-win for everyone, except those who only want to race if they can bring their gun to a knife fight and then brag they won because of their skillful aim rather than the supersonic projectile their weapon emits.