103 in an svl ?

[Ratickle]

But the class can not complain about the boat...they let it into the class..whats done is done...there own OSS inpector said it was legal.....

Since that review the bottom has reportably been modified. Only modifications done to boats prior to this season were grandfathered in for the class unless the modification was approved by the class tech prior to an event.

 

[MANITIE]

Not sure why you say that.

Because it has been said and some have agreed..that if all SVL's were inspected per the rule book that only 3 or 4 would pass...

 

[MANITIE]

Since that review the bottom has reportably been modified. Only modifications done to boats prior to this season were grandfathered in for the class unless the modification was approved by the class tech prior to an event.

Were is that in the rule book....
Because some teams changed there bottoms and broke the rules ....they have to change the rules so them boat won't get DQ...

This is my point....when dose it stop...were in the rule book dose it say you can hack off your computer..
If every engine was sent to Merc....and they inspected to the rules..would they all pass...

If your going to be laxed on your rules then so be it.....
But you can't pick and choose who you laxed the rules on...
Again....put out your rules and let the chips fall where they may....

It was simple before..if you had a engine issue it had to go to Merc, Inovation..peroid..you could not work on your engine at all...
If you wanted to protest a boat...you put up the money for the protest and the rules were followed...

If the rules were left alone since the APBA LLC....this would not even be a issue right now....

 

[Ratickle]

One of those things that wasn't written down.

 

[Mike A.]

The sport should be progressive and welcome change.

pat W

Yes, because that is a formula that has always worked...
:leaving:

 

[Mike A.]

This thread proves one thing: The vintage SVL's need to form their own class. Let P1 form a class for new boats. There is no reason the owners of the vintage boats need to spend their money so that Tom Cruise can kick their asses then pretend he is Bob-John-Ben-Dave TeaTomRobScott and Leonardo Decaprio (I am king of the world) all in one, and then have his shills crack on their competence. (If I were Bruce, Steve, Gary, Randy, Jimmy, etc. that stupid, ignorant commentary would really hack me off - just sayin')

What a joke.

Message to Vintage guys - Give everyone the center digit salute, do your own thing, and have fun. You can go racing while the new boat guys fight with themselves over terrible tech, ever changing rules, different engines, speed enforcement problems, etc. etc.

If someone wants to build a new boat for your class then they can go to Extreme, Phantom, Activator, or Lavey and have one built from existing tooling. That means the boats should be less expensive and the builders should still make good money because they do not have to invest one dime in new tools. Win-win.

Now, if P1 is legit then they will continue to fund your class since you have the most boats and likely will for some time. On the other hand, if P1 insists on you allowing the new tech boats in (i.e. Fountains) well then that says it all. You guys can easily figure out that the money you get from P1 does not come close to the diminution in value of your boats, thus making the decision to form your own class even easier.

 

[MANITIE]

One of those things that wasn't written down.

And unfortunatly you can not have that in any racing.....

You have heard it from the guy thats been there and done it...and seen it..
We all have....
Set rules...and enforce them....the foundation of any type of racing....and in a spec class....without it...it will not work...we all know that....

 

[Dunbar 104]

Mark....you should have not stepped down...
You stepped into a hornest nest and it was not going to be fixed without problems being met head on...

Were in a no win situation right now. The class will not have any direction until the torque sensor shows up. That is how we got here in the first place. Till than I am on hold.

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

If the rules were left alone since the APBA LLC....this would not even be a issue right now....

That is easy for you to say....

It only takes one team with an agenda different then the rest to have a problem. Rules are only part of it.. Enforcement is a bigger part.

As far as the only three boats are legal BS.. What a crock.. The boats have been amazingly similar in performance for years. A new boat shows up and suddenly the changes made seasons ago are getting complained about..

Last year the class attempted adapt the same rules across three orgs. This year we tried to adopt a new boat with a large budget into the mix. A lot has been accomplished.. A few snags but progress still.

Surprise, surprise the new boat with the big budget is winning.. Wow it goes 100....It was not un expected. Some other boats were nearing that mark... Just because they have not caught up with the new boat doesn't mean they cant.. All the boats combined haven't tested as much or as many props as the new one...

One thing for sure SVL still has everyone's attention..We got people who race different classes raving... Go figure with all the attention given to GPS racing people have forgotten what it is like to find speed in a set up.. Wow that thing is fast.... Sure.... they will get faster yet....

I am confident everyone that wants to RACE will find a way to common ground.. The guys that fill trophy cases will come and go or find their place in classes alone... Like always..

I have been watching the changes over the years,, many patterns repeat time and time again.. I think it is time for a new approach.. I think the torque sensors will bring the change.. Technology has to lead the rules not rules following technology. The rules can't keep up.. Image all the data that can be acquired. For the first time a drag coefficient of hulls can be computed. Power, weight with this value added in will enable various hulls to be better matched to race on a even field.. It would also create a new marketing gimmick the manufactures can run with. "My boats are the most efficient, there are various restrictions that are added to my boats to enable the others to keep up." It might take a while for it to sink in..They are not getting penalized they are getting a new marketing program.

Ramble over for now..

 

[Ratickle]

The reason we never had to kick in parity in F1 was that there was no dominate boat. When Fountain came to F1 they almost ruined it but they left after we implemented an X dimension rule and single vendor engine certification program.
Steve

Would those two criteria correct a lot of what we are discussing in this thread? Other than it would be a couple of engine certification vendors.

Is X dimension a great equalizer?

So, in other words;

Who cares about bottom mods. As long as they have the X dimension, gear ratio, length, width, gunnel height, and overall height, stock engine, stock ECM, drive type parameters, and weight met. Bring it??????

 

[MANITIE]

That is easy for you to say....

It only takes one team with an agenda different then the rest to have a problem. Rules are only part of it.. Enforcement is a bigger part.

As far as the only three boats are legal BS.. What a crock.. The boats have been amazingly similar in performance for years. A new boat shows up and suddenly the changes made seasons ago are getting complained about.. "

Jim...what agenda....everyone whats to race and win..don't you...
I remeber Randy saying..its only cheating if you get caught...

Yes..I agree rules are a big part and following them and enforcing them is even a bigger part...So why brake them in the first place...

Jim you say that all this talk is BS...but is your boat, hull and engine 100% to spec of the APBA LLC rules...just woundering...no computers hacked from any teams... right...all engines with all origanal or relaced with the same parts from the block up...

You guys knew that the tech from OSS to SBI to OPA are all differant...
This is no suprise...anywhere...

Some of you guys are OK with the Fountain racing...and feel you can run with them...and just don't like the driver...others say the Fountain is cheating....Its your class...I thought you guys run the class..do what you want with it....bann the Fountain from racing with you..and anyone you don't like or think is cheating...
Thats what I don't get....
You don't even have a rule book..but your quick to call cheater....

 

[MANITIE]

Would those two criteria correct a lot of what we are discussing in this thread? Other than it would be a couple of engine certification vendors.

Is X dimension a great equalizer?

So, in other words;

Who cares about bottom mods. As long as they have the X dimension, gear ratio, length, width, gunnel height, and overall height, stock engine, stock ECM, drive type parameters, and weight met. Bring it??????

The set X help with keeping the boats as equal as you could...
One of the best rules was the hymolgation rule...there were no one offs..you could buy a boat in 2000 and in 2002 the same new boat was exactly the same....
These same hulls were on the showroom floor....so there was no bottom changing at all...
Also there was a prop claiming rule...there was a set price to pay for your compeditors prop...

 

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

All bottoms get tweaked now a days. Where does the blueprint end and the tweak begin.. It was not perfect..Some boats are just more efficient then others. There is always going to be a stand out and a dog.

Whether its the prop , X, ratio, RPM or bottom it should all be fair game. Keep inspections simple. Output determines weight. Collect data to determine efficiency. Apply the efficiency value and restrict prop, ratios and x, and/or adjust rpm to balance... Simple inspections, adjust efficiency value as set-ups change. Everybody races together...except the guys that just want to impress.

Open water is easier . Top speed doesn't matter.

Its Time to change the way its done.

 

[shifter]

Yes, because that is a formula that has always worked...
:leaving:

It does work.

I just got through mod on a raceboat out here to find that the strakes in the front were 1.5 inches different side to side from center. I was floored and then releived to finally know why the boat always listed to port at speed. I then sat there and wondered how many they built like that. Now that the bottom is straight and true it is off to testing to find out the results.

The boats that are made need improvement to make them faster/safer, that is what racing is all about. It weeds out the weaker designs and flaws very quickly.

pat W

 

[Steve Miklos]

I agree, 100%.......people that want to add zeros to this ,, should save there money and buy a boat if they have 50,000 to loose ?. ....I learned this from Bob T and Johnie T,,, they can do things with a boat that others only dream of,,,,

Do not be so close minded to focus only on the "Factor T"
* Factor T ( Technology), is basic with this entry level class of boat racing,: Sealed Mercury Motors,, Weight, Hull Design, and set up. I bet the Fountain team has an inventory of more finely tuned props than all the other SVL teams together. Combine that with the daily testing that is done with set ups, weight transfer, changes in CG. I doubt if they weigh anymore than the limite of 4750. Fountain may build an efficient hull, How come the builder of older Phantom boats, is not testing and racing?

* Factor E ( Experience), Do not underestimate the experience factor, Brian F, sets more V bottoms than anyone in the world, tests boats,and prepares 7 days a week. When I interviewed Doc and his kids, it was clear that they have been racing every type of motorized vehicle you could imagine, for a decade ( Bennie R told me they kicked his A, this past winter in the mountains,,,) And when it comes to boats they have been fortunate to have been influenced/ trained by Dave Scott, John Tomlinson, Bennie Robinson, Reggie Fountain and regularly by Brain ,,,, they may have not been in your rear view mirror before the season,,,but they have everyone else in the rear view mirror now,,,,,

Earthworks is correct, reminds me.....the situation with Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder, do not underestimate the "E" factor in the other team

Why would you think they have more props than the other teams? How many hering's would you think our team has soley for our SVL boat?


You cleary have your version of everyone else and have very little idea how or what other's may or may not have. So where's your boat boat and prop arsenal?
Steve

 

[Steve Miklos]

The only single engine boat I have driven was the 30 ft Cougar A boat. It was fn for testing but a rough ride I would hate to run those speeds in a 24.

I watched several batboat races in europe and seeing a bunch of the same boat running around out there was boring.

My point was if you want to keep the boats in check put the data on and keep them reigned in on the overall speed to make it close between all the boats who are similar. If you want to watch their rpm look at the data, its simple and cost effective.

The sport should be progressive and welcome change.

pat W

Pat as you know the sport cannot financially keep a fleet of any size while welcoming progression and change.
Steve

 

[Mike A.]

It does work.

I just got through mod on a raceboat out here to find that the strakes in the front were 1.5 inches different side to side from center. I was floored and then releived to finally know why the boat always listed to port at speed. I then sat there and wondered how many they built like that. Now that the bottom is straight and true it is off to testing to find out the results.

The boats that are made need improvement to make them faster/safer, that is what racing is all about. It weeds out the weaker designs and flaws very quickly.

pat W

Yep, works great. Just look at how awesome boat racing is today following that formula. Damn, who knew.

 

[Mike A.]

Pat as you know the sport cannot financially keep a fleet of any size while welcoming progression and change.
Steve

Actually Steve, Pat has never understood that and never will. Here we are 10 years later and he is saying the exact same thing. All the spec classes that were allowed to go nuts after we stepped away are gone, except for SVL, which is now on its way out because you guys let that Fountain in unchecked. The only good thing about any of this is that anyone who wants to buy a vintage SVL should be able to pick one up soon for $20,000.00, assuming it runs and needs little work.

 

[rchevelle71]

hymolgation rule......

So much for the spelling lessons:smash:

 

[MANITIE]

So much for the spelling lessons:smash:

You can have escargous once in a while...but in the end you come back to the macaroni and cheese......:cheers2: