The carry weapon debate

[fund razor]

The carry weapon equipment debate

My dad, my buddy and I are all going to take the CCW class.
We are all three shopping for good carry weapons.

All three of us are familiar with guns. My dad has never owned a semi-auto handgun but he has fired some of mine at the range. His current handgun is a bad carry choice (large frame .38 revolver) my current handgun is a bad carry choice (large frame .40 semi-auto). I owned a 9mm for a long time.
I am not as accurate with hand cannon sized caliber guns as I am with smaller caliber guns. I can put a 9mm round in the middle of a match target at 50 feet. A 44 magnum or a 45 acp, not so much. I can hit the paper though. A carry-sized weapon will probably even have a shorter barrel than what I am used to shooting.

The debate revolves around carry caliber. Many say that you should carry a 45, so that you have the maximum stopping power. I am wondering whether a smaller caliber would be a better choice for me (and maybe my dad) because of the ease of carry, light weight, and better accuracy. I mean... if I can dot an i with a 9mm, but my groups expand beyond 3-5 inches with a 45, doesn't it stand to reason that I should carry what I am most accurate with to begin with, since shooting under stress will further reduce my potential accuracy?

He was looking at a semi-auto in a .380 caliber. My concern with that was availability of ammo.

 

[phragle]

Off the top of my head, I would think it better to put two slugs into an intruder than to miss and put one in the neighbor. Especially considering the probability that if you were forced to do so, would be in a low light condition and you wouldn't be in the calmest state of mind.

 

[fund razor]

Off the top of my head, I would think it better to put two slugs into an intruder than to miss and put one in the neighbor. Especially considering the probability that if you were forced to do so, would be in a low light condition and you wouldn't be in the calmest state of mind.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Although for home defense, the first weapon that I would grab would be a tactical 12 guage with 00.
(Unless I was carrying at home.)

 

[Tony]

As far as caliber and manageable reccoil, you need to be able to emtpty the magazine or cylinder into a 6" circle at 15' with either hand tied behind your back.

In a self defense scenario any caliber is better than nothing at all.

 

[Chris]

Phragle is right. But for a big guy like you, you're probably not going to have much problem. Larger weapons mostly present a problem because of gripframe size. If you can't get a good, firm grip you won't hit well. I'm guessing your issue is one of instruction and possibly experience. There is the phenomenon of recoil sensitivity, but it's rare- especially with larger men and handguns. You see it alot with lightweight shotguns. Some good instruction will disabuse you of it quickly. My son is 5'7" and 145 lbs, He shoots a broad variety of 45's with ease. He shoots my 460 and 500 Smiths all the time and can hit well with them.

Aside from that, the issue becomes one of practicality. What will you carry? I can't stand to have 3 coins in my pockets. My keychain consists of my single car key and my wallet has virtually nothing in it (not for lack of trying). So, I don't want a 1911 in a belt holster. Also, many states have rules on "printing" or being obvious that you're armed. Nonetheless, whatever you choose is going to have to be something you can be comfortable wearing, simply because it's only useful sitting on your dresser if you're accosted while picking out socks for the day.

Now you have to select something you're comfortable carrying. What I mean is, are you willing to bet your life on it functioning. I have a number of very cool pistols. 99% of them will only see the range. I won them because of how they're constructed, how they shoot, their uniqueness or some other factor. But there are few I'd trust my life to. It comes down to pure functionality. If it doesn't go bang when you squeeze the trigger, it's a decoration. Revolvers almost always go bang. FTF rates on quality built revolvers is amost nil. And virtually always ammo-related.

Autoloading pistols are a different story. Many are ammo-sensitive. That almost sounds silly considering you could take cartridges from a dozen different manufacturers that all look and spec identically, but you pistol may not feed one or more of a certain brand reliably. Autopistols are also magazine sensitive. I've had them where one particular pistol would only function properly with a couple of magazines out of a batch. And that's no guarantee they will forever. leave that mag sit full with the spring compressed month after month and it'll change. And maybe not feed when you need it to.

Now that you've found your perfect carry piece, now you need to learn what to do with it. Shooting a handgun at paper targets at a shooting range will teach you defensive shooting in about the same way masturbation will teach you how to make love to a beautiful woman. There are some vague similarities, but not enough to matter. It's way to complicated to go into here- or even in a book. You'll need some professional training. But here are some points.

Forget accuracy at distances.
If you've got distance, run and hide. Most defensive shootings happen indoors. Almost all happen in enclosed spaces. Think about the scenarios- someone enters your home. Someone jacks your car with you in it, you're in a bank or restaurant. Imagine yourself standing in your kitchen. Now look at how far away an intruder might be if he came in. It's pretty close. Scary close. There's a good chance if you shoot them you're going to powder-burn them close. So to my second point-

What they teach you in CCW class is useless.
Useless in defending your life that is. If you have any sort of concern that you'll need a weapon to defend yourself, you probably need the rest of the tools you need as well. The most important is the ability to use the tool you bought. There are some shooting basics- tip of the iceberg stuff. First is how to draw and fire your weapon. If you're planning on drawing your weapon, acquiring a grip, raising it, finding the sights, acquiring a site picture, aiming and discharging the weapon, don't bother. Your relatives are already making your arrangements. The first shooting position you have to master is low/tight. You're going to draw and unless your adversary already has you around the ankles, you rotate the pistol 90 degrees- towards your assailant. Your forearm is drawn to your side for stability. And then you fire. If nothing else the noise may slow your guy down enough to get you're next couple of shots off, which are low two-hand grip. That's two hands on the weapon, elbows tucket at your belly. Now you're pointing pretty effectively and firing whie you're bringing your weapon upt o the third spot which is high, two hand. You're still pointing but now in a prett comfortable and effective position. If they're still alive, now you're acquiring a site picture and aiming your weapon for the first time. This whole thing happened in about two second. You just fired 4 or 5 shots.

...and that's assuming you were squared off with your assailant.
Sit in your car with your pistol on your side. Now imagine someone opened the passenger door and jumped in. How would you shoot them? That's one of dozens of scenarios. You need to learn how to shoot from cover. And if that cover is on the right, you need to be proficient in shooting one-handed with your left hand. Ever done that? How about lying down?

This is all stuff they're not going to let you practice at an open public range.

 

[fund razor]

Thanks for investing in that response, Chris.

I understand completely. I also readily admit that I have much less time with larger caliber weapons. I have dozens of 45 rounds, hundreds of 40 cal rounds, but thousands of 9mm rounds under my belt. And the weapon that I had four digit rounds through was the only one that ever felt completely natural in my hand(s). Whatever I choose will get the time investment on the range.

I think that I will focus on what can be comfortably carried, and then spend some time getting used to it. The CCW class only allows me the right to present myself to the Sheriff to get a carry permit. I know that a defensive shooting class would be a better asset to my long term respiration efforts.

There are some 5 shot revolvers out there that are pretty low profile. Maybe that is where I want to focus my research.

 

[MarylandMark]

My son is 5'7" and 1455 lbs,

BIG kid! What ya feedin' him? Do you get like 8 write offs on your taxes for him?

 

[Chris]

BIG kid! What ya feedin' him? Do you get like 8 write offs on your taxes for him?

It's been Typo Tuesday all day for me.

 

[Chris]

Many indoor ranges have rentals. There's one south of Columbus that has dozens of different rentals. It's a good way to weed through.

I know everyone gets bored with my HK commercials, but maybe the best carry piece out there is the P7. It's very compact for a 9mm. it's slim so it rides well in a belt holster. But best of all, if someone were to wrestle it away from you, they'd probabaly never figure out how to shoot you with it. It's a squeeze cocker. One other added benefit. It's the most naturally aiming handgun I've ever owned- that makes it incredibly accurate. And rarely do I find disagreement on that point.

Alot of people carry the 380. It's a tad underpowered, but three rounds at the ranges were talking about will settle most arguments. The Walther PPK is a very nice sized carrt piece. SiG makes an almost identical copy.

 

[MarylandMark]

It's been Typo Tuesday all day for me.

LOL- I've noticed that from you today as well.

Back on track- I've been looking to do the CCW thing just to do it. I took the Maryland Firearm Safety class online (what a joke..) but then kind of dropped the ball on moving further. This was all in response to reading gun posts on SOS and going to fire off a few dozen rounds with the wife-to-be and realizing neither of us should have access to the gun I have (9mm semi). To my credit which makes 0 matter in real world, the gun was given to me by a buddy when he had kids but I've only had 50 rounds through it over 4-5 years.

So anyway- think I am going to pick back up on this, maybe not going all the way to the CCW level (time constraints) but at least buying and learning how to use and practicing with a revolver.

I'll never forget about 2 years ago I pulled the gun out to clean it. Yep, thought it was unloaded and 1 was in the chamber. Guns aren't toys and never treated it as such and found the chambered round as I was double checking to make sure it was unloaded, right before I triple checked it wasn't loaded and then checked again. Still put the fear of not knowing the gun well enough in my mind and like I said, will never forget that day.

 

[fund razor]

Many indoor ranges have rentals. There's one south of Columbus that has dozens of different rentals. It's a good way to weed through.

I know everyone gets bored with my HK commercials, but maybe the best carry piece out there is the P7. It's very compact for a 9mm. it's slim so it rides well in a belt holster. But best of all, if someone were to wrestle it away from you, they'd probabaly never figure out how to shoot you with it. It's a squeeze cocker. One other added benefit. It's the most naturally aiming handgun I've ever owned- that makes it incredibly accurate. And rarely do I find disagreement on that point.

Alot of people carry the 380. It's a tad underpowered, but three rounds at the ranges were talking about will settle most arguments. The Walther PPK is a very nice sized carrt piece. SiG makes an almost identical copy.

The one that I use does.

 

[fund razor]

LOL- I've noticed that from you today as well.

Back on track- I've been looking to do the CCW thing just to do it. I took the Maryland Firearm Safety class online (what a joke..) but then kind of dropped the ball on moving further. This was all in response to reading gun posts on SOS and going to fire off a few dozen rounds with the wife-to-be and realizing neither of us should have access to the gun I have (9mm semi). To my credit which makes 0 matter in real world, the gun was given to me by a buddy when he had kids but I've only had 50 rounds through it over 4-5 years.

So anyway- think I am going to pick back up on this, maybe not going all the way to the CCW level (time constraints) but at least buying and learning how to use and practicing with a revolver.

I'll never forget about 2 years ago I pulled the gun out to clean it. Yep, thought it was unloaded and 1 was in the chamber. Guns aren't toys and never treated it as such and found the chambered round as I was double checking to make sure it was unloaded, right before I triple checked it wasn't loaded and then checked again. Still put the fear of not knowing the gun well enough in my mind and like I said, will never forget that day.

Yeah. I don't think that my .40 is unloaded unless I am looking through the open slide down the empty grip. There is no substitute for sheer time with a weapon, that much I have learned. I was super comfortable with my 9mm but I bought into the caliber thing and stepped up to the .40. Both the 9mm and the 40 that I have owned were retired service pistols for LEOs. Too big for CCW.

 

[gerritm]

Thanks for investing in that response, Chris.

I understand completely. I also readily admit that I have much less time with larger caliber weapons. I have dozens of 45 rounds, hundreds of 40 cal rounds, but thousands of 9mm rounds under my belt. And the weapon that I had four digit rounds through was the only one that ever felt completely natural in my hand(s). Whatever I choose will get the time investment on the range.

I think that I will focus on what can be comfortably carried, and then spend some time getting used to it. The CCW class only allows me the right to present myself to the Sheriff to get a carry permit. I know that a defensive shooting class would be a better asset to my long term respiration efforts.

There are some 5 shot revolvers out there that are pretty low profile. Maybe that is where I want to focus my research.

Comfortable and natural in your hands, the best advice anyone can give or get. That is the key. See if you have a local IDPA or USPSA shoot and try it just for fun. You will find out how many of your carry weapons don't work and all of the glitches and problems that can happen. It is a learning experience and much better than most classes. Many big dollar semi guns will not function consistently as Chris has said. It gives a basic way to find out how good your gear is/functions and how to shoot, reload, and move. Myself and several of my buddies have become hooked on this. It is a blast. Beats static paper targets.

As far as revolvers, make sure you shoot a few before deciding. The smaller carry types are difficult to fire, most have poor triggers and you lose your site picture as you squeeze the trigger. Even smaller calibers have a lot of recoil. Personally I can't hit sh44t with any of them. I will stick to my Kimber.

 

[DollaBill]

Desert Eagle .50 cal would prob do the trick. Just post a pic on the front door that this is whats waiting inside

 

[fund razor]

Desert Eagle .50 cal would prob do the trick. Just post a pic on the front door that this is whats waiting inside

A) that is not a carry weapon.

B) See A

 

[fund razor]

Comfortable and natural in your hands, the best advice anyone can give or get. That is the key. See if you have a local IDPA or USPSA shoot and try it just for fun. You will find out how many of your carry weapons don't work and all of the glitches and problems that can happen. It is a learning experience and much better than most classes. Many big dollar semi guns will not function consistently as Chris has said. It gives a basic way to find out how good your gear is/functions and how to shoot, reload, and move. Myself and several of my buddies have become hooked on this. It is a blast. Beats static paper targets.

As far as revolvers, make sure you shoot a few before deciding. The smaller carry types are difficult to fire, most have poor triggers and you lose your site picture as you squeeze the trigger. Even smaller calibers have a lot of recoil. Personally I can't hit sh44t with any of them. I will stick to my Kimber.

I have a buddy who carries a Kimber LCP in 45.
I thought about looking into the HK that Chris likes. Looks like they are out of production but available used, if I read what I surfed on them right.
Thanks for the input on revolvers. You hit on some of my concerns.

 

[Dr Speed]

Smith & Wesson M&P40c or 9c. Great gun. Also try on a bunch of holsters to see which secure the firearm best, fit best, are most comfortable, easy to draw from and conceal properly. Add a good gun belt to hold it properly.

 

[VetteLT193]

Carry is not about accuracy at 50 feet. it is accuracy at 5 feet or less. The gun needs to get you out of a really bad situation... the best way to put realistically is you won't pull the gun unless you can smell the guy's breath.

I actually took the sites off of my main carry gun... faster to pull out, less crap to snag, and reality is you aren't siting in during a carry situation... pull and shoot, get the F out to live another day. I can still shoot it at 25 feet accurately enough to hit a person so I'm A-OK at less than that. Practice is always good. I practice with this weapon without siting, pull it out, 2 shots back to back, try to hit the target. no breathing technique, no thinking, no BS type deal. Even doing that it won't even be close to an actual situation but it is the best I can do at my range.

My main carry is a Taurus .45 Millennium Pro. Stainless. It is sub compact. Easy to grab hold of and very accurate for its size. holds 10 rounds + 1. it has a built in lock on the slide.

I mention the lock because you also have to think about realistic carry. There are times you need to leave it in the car.... locking it is a must but having a separate lock is a PITA and not realistic. I keep the key on my key chain and all I need to do to lock the pistol is insert and twist. no finding other parts. I mentioned stainless because this weapon will be subjected to high humidity, sweat, and in general not great conditions.

My gun is far easier to shoot than the smaller frame 380's. those look easy to shoot but are too small for an average man's hands.

My other gun is carry-able, but too large to be comfortable in regular clothes (shirt/t-shirt). it's fine for a jacket situation. That's a Sig Pro 9mm. I feel better with the Taurus for carry though.

 

[gerritm]

I have a buddy who carries a Kimber LCP in 45.
I thought about looking into the HK that Chris likes. Looks like they are out of production but available used, if I read what I surfed on them right.
Thanks for the input on revolvers. You hit on some of my concerns.

Check out gunbroker.com. If it is out there it will be on this website. Also give you a pretty good price of what you should pay. Most of those prices are 10% or so high, but gives you a starting point. I have sold and bought several guns thru them. It is a good reference. Search out that HK that Chris recommended to see if it is available. I had an HK USP Tactical .40 and it was a great gun and ran flawless. It is too large for carry, but HK makes several compact models. But again try them out, fondle them at a local gun show and get what feels right. That is how I went to Kimber, fondled one at the local gun show, it felt right. My truck gun is a Ruger P89D in SS. It is a brute, but shoots where I point it and goes bang every time. It also feels right. The Kimber is on the higher side of prices ($800 plus) and the Ruger is the low end ($350).

 

[Uncle Dave]

.357 is actually the most effective round in any caliber, and a small revolver can shoot this or, load and practice or plink with the the extremely affordable 38, or 38+P in the same gun.

you can get this ammo ANYWHERE and get it cheap, AND you can use it in a short carbine rifle if you really want to be versatile. a 357 rifle can deliver a hell of a wallop.

A small revolver in this caliber is my favorite carry piece loaded with 357. No jamming, no problems, no BS.

Additionally, If you have a weapon problem your ammo works for your whole arsenal.

UD