Sean H
Charter Member
several teams run real time data already.
Headlines
P1-usa
- Thread starter TYPHOON
- Start date
several teams run real time data already.
Steve Miklos
Charter Member / Competitor
We do just do not have a stress gauge on engine. We also only have boat data at this time. The only engine data we look at is RPM as the rest really cannot be changed anyway.
Steve
XtremeRacing
Competitor
Thanks Steve
Cool thread. Some food for thought based on my experience and observations:
The overseas racing model has been based for years on running 1 - 2 classes totaling 10-15 boats at venues geared toward spectators, fans, and sponsorship opportunities and entertainment. No one is running that model in the US and none of the existing organizations are in a position to suddenly do it now.
Moreover, JC is not going to reinvent the wheel at this stage of his life, OSS has been on life support for years, APBA is not in a position to create anything from scratch, and OPA has no reason to abandon its successful model for something so expensive and risky.
In addition, Class 1 has less than 10 boats and P1 has 14 so it it is unlikely either is coming to the US absent some huge financial guarantees. Given the current economic environment that is not going to happen. Similarly, it is inconceivable that anyone is going to step up with the resources necessary to start a new organization from scratch, particularly one based on the overseas model.
Thus, it seems to me, if American racers want to create a "premier class" platform, then it must be done using a simple, enforceable, power to weight ratio rule structure that allows most if not all current boats (whether cat, vee, twin, single, canopy, open, or one or more combinations thereof) to compete in the same class. Whichever class or classes do that then can take their product to any of the organizations, race, and have fun.
Personally, however, I do not think anyone should demand or expect any current organization to pay for or otherwise commit their scarce resources for the right to have that premier class or classes appear at their event. Realistically, that is not going to happen any time soon, if ever again.
The overseas racing model has been based for years on running 1 - 2 classes totaling 10-15 boats at venues geared toward spectators, fans, and sponsorship opportunities and entertainment. No one is running that model in the US and none of the existing organizations are in a position to suddenly do it now.
Moreover, JC is not going to reinvent the wheel at this stage of his life, OSS has been on life support for years, APBA is not in a position to create anything from scratch, and OPA has no reason to abandon its successful model for something so expensive and risky.
In addition, Class 1 has less than 10 boats and P1 has 14 so it it is unlikely either is coming to the US absent some huge financial guarantees. Given the current economic environment that is not going to happen. Similarly, it is inconceivable that anyone is going to step up with the resources necessary to start a new organization from scratch, particularly one based on the overseas model.
Thus, it seems to me, if American racers want to create a "premier class" platform, then it must be done using a simple, enforceable, power to weight ratio rule structure that allows most if not all current boats (whether cat, vee, twin, single, canopy, open, or one or more combinations thereof) to compete in the same class. Whichever class or classes do that then can take their product to any of the organizations, race, and have fun.
Personally, however, I do not think anyone should demand or expect any current organization to pay for or otherwise commit their scarce resources for the right to have that premier class or classes appear at their event. Realistically, that is not going to happen any time soon, if ever again.
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
does the strain gauge use any h.p.?
shifter
Charter Member
We can run live feed to shore but it is expensive and you need a relay like a helicopter to send the data to. It is done through radio transmission.
Strain gages are expensive and delicate. The ones we ran with the military were $25,000 per shaft. At the time they were powered by 9v batteries to transmit to a reciever. On most of the tests in the rough we flung the batteries.. What do you do when the data doesn't read? DQ the guy?
It seems to be going away from the (keep it simple stupid) to attract more people towards the sport that this sport needs.
We have been watching RPM and MPH on the P1 class out here. We know there are boats that can exceed the speed of the class and they need to watch what they are doing to stay within the limits of the class. In the open ocean no one ran over 100 mph anyways.
I grew up in Can Am where there were no weight and no hp rules. Those cars are still amazing to this day.
The focus should be towards safety of the boats. More Hp means more control. They have been restricting the engines witch hurts throttle response and makes the guys hang it out more hoping to pass.
Potato chips are what came out of F1 and F2 with hidden watertanks, tweaked engines, special fuel, forged blades welded to stock hubs....etc to get around the hp to weight issues.
More rules = more rules broken.
KISS
pat W
Strain gages are expensive and delicate. The ones we ran with the military were $25,000 per shaft. At the time they were powered by 9v batteries to transmit to a reciever. On most of the tests in the rough we flung the batteries.. What do you do when the data doesn't read? DQ the guy?
It seems to be going away from the (keep it simple stupid) to attract more people towards the sport that this sport needs.
We have been watching RPM and MPH on the P1 class out here. We know there are boats that can exceed the speed of the class and they need to watch what they are doing to stay within the limits of the class. In the open ocean no one ran over 100 mph anyways.
I grew up in Can Am where there were no weight and no hp rules. Those cars are still amazing to this day.
The focus should be towards safety of the boats. More Hp means more control. They have been restricting the engines witch hurts throttle response and makes the guys hang it out more hoping to pass.
Potato chips are what came out of F1 and F2 with hidden watertanks, tweaked engines, special fuel, forged blades welded to stock hubs....etc to get around the hp to weight issues.
More rules = more rules broken.
KISS
pat W
Steve Miklos
Charter Member / Competitor
Steve Miklos
Charter Member / Competitor
The current strain gauges are testing well. As you know the military is not always cutting edge. NASA is way behind F1 in some areas. Open rules are great if you have the budget. Reality is that top Can Am cars were cheaper than an open boat in similar dollars.
Steve
shifter
Charter Member
The problem I have with strain gauges is a torque spike. In some instances it is 25 times engine torque. That is a no lift 30 mph missmatch re-entry. Common in offshore, i.e. shtty throttleman or he did not see the wave (night driving) so you start smoothing data...knocking the spikes off. Where is the reality? Was it a driveside hit or a coastside hit.
Reality is if you make it difficult for people to show up and race they will Poker Run instead.
In Can Am we were making 1500 hp with the Comander motorhome m20 but the tires would not hold it. So how much power was used was still down to the driver.
pat W
Reality is if you make it difficult for people to show up and race they will Poker Run instead.
In Can Am we were making 1500 hp with the Comander motorhome m20 but the tires would not hold it. So how much power was used was still down to the driver.
pat W
DAREDEVIL
Banned
Guy's, i stayed out of this conversation,,,,,here is why : ,,,i can only say we need to look forward and unify what we have first.
I bet Martin is trying to do the best with this effort but discussing all this now does not make sense.
After talking to Joe Sgro and others that been there and raced there,,,i can only tell u maybe 3-5 people of us racers can afford P1 racing ,,,so it is nothing for us " RIGHT NOW " to even think about !!!
I can't tell u the exact price but i know for damn sure SBI is cheap compared to P1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I bet Martin is trying to do the best with this effort but discussing all this now does not make sense.
After talking to Joe Sgro and others that been there and raced there,,,i can only tell u maybe 3-5 people of us racers can afford P1 racing ,,,so it is nothing for us " RIGHT NOW " to even think about !!!
I can't tell u the exact price but i know for damn sure SBI is cheap compared to P1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve Miklos
Charter Member / Competitor
Under that example which seems high. You would compare the speed of the boat with the output of torque and know the boat was not at optimal speed. If you were also looking at throttle position you would know it was closed or close. Finally wouldnt the torque be inverse to normal? Generated by the prop not the crankshaft?
Steve
I agree with you dare devil , I have attended an event of p1 since the very first day of the sport. It is getting over expensive. From 2003 -2006 costs were quite resonable and the sport was fun because it was truly a skilful championship, now its whs technologically advanced. Until 2006 there were still CUV s / and classics /and also converted to - raceboats , racing in there and they used to kick ass!!! Now they are banned , forcing more teams out ... so you must becareful , it will be positive to see this happening. I hope everything stays affordable in the honda series.
P1 is a very nice sport to follow but for loving fans it might prove difficult to practice.:driving:
Steve Miklos
Charter Member / Competitor
I do not see the cost any higher with the exception of strain gauge cost and entry fee's. The boats we are talking about on here are allready full tilt Lavin compliant raceboats.
Steve
Steve
MOBILEMERCMAN
Founding Member / Competitor
I don't know how you can price something before seeing it or reading its details. Circumstances in the states are different than in Europe. Lets not put the cart before the horse.
News will be coming soon and the speculation can end.
News will be coming soon and the speculation can end.
skaterdave
New member
in ideal flat water conditions hp could be simple figured out using data loggers.
if you have the ability to collect data of speed, time, rpm and the know the weight of the object your accellerating the math could be done to figure out hp/torque. the only outside factors (rotating parts past the flywheel) are the drives, water conditions and props. also the "outside factors" would seem to have the same affect if you were to use the strain gauge (???), but without the cost of the specialized strain gauge.
as one can read just in this thread alone, NO-ONE is willing to compromise. there's been a few ideas thrown around like allowing other engine builders into the SVL class and turn it into a single engine hp to wt. but right away that was discarded has too much trouble and from what i could read the svl class thinks every thing is good and their the biggest class ?????
one note on the merc 525 engine rule- i could easliy have a BBC built for half the cost of the merc with much better parts. merc sealed rebuilds are much to expensive, agian about twice the normal. and for the life of me i cant figure out why someone would make rules where you give a monoply to only one manufacture with no support given back to racers or orgs that force you to run the manufactures equipment.
here lies the problem. each little group thinks their the best and the "others" should change to there rules. look how long the relationship lasted with oss/opa, 1 race!!!!!
P1 coming to the US won't change things here. next, i don't see P1 as a good business. yes the model makes sense but the actual return isn't there. the owner has aready STATED that he has poured millions of his own money into P1 and basically has nothing to show for it. if i'm wrong please tell me what P1 is worth $$$$-wise. also if P1 is doing so good how come back a few years ago i could actually watch P1 on cable. i remember taping the races. thats gone, why ? i see Lucas Oil drags boats, figure 8 racing, snow mobiles. geman and UK touring cars ????
if you have the ability to collect data of speed, time, rpm and the know the weight of the object your accellerating the math could be done to figure out hp/torque. the only outside factors (rotating parts past the flywheel) are the drives, water conditions and props. also the "outside factors" would seem to have the same affect if you were to use the strain gauge (???), but without the cost of the specialized strain gauge.
as one can read just in this thread alone, NO-ONE is willing to compromise. there's been a few ideas thrown around like allowing other engine builders into the SVL class and turn it into a single engine hp to wt. but right away that was discarded has too much trouble and from what i could read the svl class thinks every thing is good and their the biggest class ?????
one note on the merc 525 engine rule- i could easliy have a BBC built for half the cost of the merc with much better parts. merc sealed rebuilds are much to expensive, agian about twice the normal. and for the life of me i cant figure out why someone would make rules where you give a monoply to only one manufacture with no support given back to racers or orgs that force you to run the manufactures equipment.
here lies the problem. each little group thinks their the best and the "others" should change to there rules. look how long the relationship lasted with oss/opa, 1 race!!!!!
P1 coming to the US won't change things here. next, i don't see P1 as a good business. yes the model makes sense but the actual return isn't there. the owner has aready STATED that he has poured millions of his own money into P1 and basically has nothing to show for it. if i'm wrong please tell me what P1 is worth $$$$-wise. also if P1 is doing so good how come back a few years ago i could actually watch P1 on cable. i remember taping the races. thats gone, why ? i see Lucas Oil drags boats, figure 8 racing, snow mobiles. geman and UK touring cars ????
imco offshore
Competitor / Charter Member
skaterdave,,we (the svl) class are currently looking at ways to let other engines in,,but right now we don,t have an exceptable formula,,so the class has elected not change it right now...we are very open to any and all formulas...if we let it go the wrong way were back to A class racing (who has the biggest wallet.) you and we know even engine builders are looking for the next edge,so were taking the next step slowly,,look at what unlimited money did to the spec super v's,,,? there are no more !thanks we're interested in your formula.. you believe we can get a 525 built for half of the merc money,,so that would be about 8000,bucks hmmm..don,t know any marine engine builder that would do that,,do you ?
skaterdave
New member
i fully understand that point of view about adjusting your class and agree that your right. i don't really see a bunch of new boats being built if the rules where to change.
back to the 525 numbers. a new 525 is about $28k. and thats if you know someone in the business. so half of that is about $14k, which you could build a great motor for that amount. agian mercs costs on rebuilds, IMO, are to high and the parts are priced too high.
also agreed a used 525 is somewhere around $12-15K, plus then theres the question of does it need a rebuild ??? (probably the reason there for sale, since a merc sealed rebuild is going to cost about 75% of the used engine price) now your back to what a new one costs.
so the choices are p-class, or sealed spec class(merc 525) or a spec class engine which gets teched at every race or hp to wt (still got to deal with the engine)
shifter
Charter Member
I talked to a friend of mine today about the driveshafts. 6-10 grand. Then you need the data recorder etc...... same company as we used with the military. So 25 grand on the high side per twin engine boat. Do not think people would not run a hot motor on the unchecked side.(saw that before)
The Speed Gt series has been trying to run strain shafts also but to no avail. The new shafts are good (no battery) but they also are not 100% reliable. They are trying to make Porsche,Mustangs,Vipers,Vetts,Our Volvos run in the same race so what that has come down to is a sandbag contest. Try not to win so they will not put on weight....sound familiar.
You have so many other factors besides the engines involved in a spec class that it becomes a nightmare to tech so why bother?
pat W
The Speed Gt series has been trying to run strain shafts also but to no avail. The new shafts are good (no battery) but they also are not 100% reliable. They are trying to make Porsche,Mustangs,Vipers,Vetts,Our Volvos run in the same race so what that has come down to is a sandbag contest. Try not to win so they will not put on weight....sound familiar.
You have so many other factors besides the engines involved in a spec class that it becomes a nightmare to tech so why bother?
pat W
Similar threads
