Mixing Toluene questions

[2112]

How easily does Toluene mix with gasoline? Does it stay mixed or does it precipitate out due to different specific gravity?

Does it have a short tank life?

Does putting masking tape over the air vents help make the tank life of the fuel last longer?

Thanks. :USA:

 

[Chris]

Toluene blends easily and stays in solution. You don't have to do anything different with your fuel. But you have to use so much of it to get octane increases that what you gain is lost back in it's relative thermal inefficiency. It's an expensive way to go nowhere. 10:1 will get you about 1.5 points of octane.

 

[Dude! Sweet!]

What about benzene or hydrazene? :sifone: (Oh! I shouldn't be smoking in here!)

 

[Chris]

Toluene is Methylbenzene. Hydrazine is incredibly unstable and lethally toxic. It spontaneously combusts when contacted with air.

 

[2112]

Toluene blends easily and stays in solution. You don't have to do anything different with your fuel. But you have to use so much of it to get octane increases that what you gain is lost back in it's relative thermal inefficiency. It's an expensive way to go nowhere. 10:1 will get you about 1.5 points of octane.

I was thinking more along the lines of 5 to 1. And even if that is only 3 points, that is a safety margin I would like. Motors are 9.4 to 1 with 38 degrees total advance. Out here in Marxist country, the best pump gas is 91 with 10% ethanol (we're saving the earth ya know :cuss.

55 Gallon drums are less than 300 bucks. Again, not trying to make home brewed racing gas, just need the safety margin.
.

 

[Chris]

Mixing in that much toluene is going to raise your octane but it's also going to kill your power. You could mix in diesel fuel and get a huge increse in octane but it'll barely run. There's really no additive-based substance that's a substitute for using a higher grade base stock.

Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl or MMT is what you want. There's nothing better for octane boost. But good luck finding it.

I think I'd go the av-gas route myself. And it's less that six bucks a gallon.

And 38 degrees is alot of ignition lead.

 

[2112]

Wow, that is so different from what others have claimed. Did they use it in F1 successfully because they were boosting so much with turbos?

Sounds like you know your chemistry though :sifone:. Is MMT real dangerous or is it because methamphetamine cooks use it?

I do have access to AV gas and that is simple. That has lead in it correct? Just need to know so I don't F-up the wife's MINI Cooper when I run all my left overs in it this fall.

38 degrees is what the original builder/engineer specified. That is total advance. I do bump it back if I get caught with an unknown source for fuel.

 

[Chris]

There are tons of claims from people selling it. And it does increase octane. That increase stops pre-ignition, but you yield no more power. So you might as well save the $$ and turn the advance down.

Not really that knowledgeable about chemistry, just practical experience and alot of conversation with people that have tried it and actually done the testing. One of the hot rod magazines did a test on a dyno and basically found the same thing. They gained 1 to 3 horsepower on a best-case. They lost power on most.

Av gas has TEL (lead) in it. It's typically rated by aviation-lean and aviation-rich numbers. it can be represented at the pump at 100/130. the A/R number closely coincides with the MON (motor octane) number you see on the tank. You want 100/113- it's dyed green.

No idea on te F-1 application. The high boost issue is a possibility. Or the rules they impose- that make offshore's look rational.

 

[Dude! Sweet!]

Back in the 80's and early 90's they were running all sorts of crazy stuff. I recall a big sh*t fit in IMSA GTP when Toyota's fuel failed the test procedures but the method was screwed up so they got off the hook. In the F1 turbo era, the fuel guys were wearing full MOP gear to transfer fuel.

I tossed those two out there because I remembered a lot of kart roadracing guys using "funny" fuels back 10 (ok 20) years ago and I'd thought that "nazi rocket fuel" as we called it was stuff like benzene and hydrazine, but again, I place no credibility behind my memory at this point...

 

[phragle]

I know a few people who, in the 70's added model airplane fuel to the gas in two stroke motorcylcles... you really needed to jet properly for it though...

 

[sledge]

Hydrazine really is rocket fuel! Benzene was used before toluene as a fuel additive (going waay back). Toluene was used in F1 during the turbo years at some outrageous percentage; I think there was more toluene than "gas." The toluene is added not to increase power directly, but to resist pre-ignition as a result of other engine changes-high ignition advance, forced induction, high compression.

If you care about costs, back off the advance. If you're going to be dealing with 55gal drums of chemicals, toluene is cheapest but you're best off with something like avgas or a purpose-built high octane gas like Torco/VP/Sunoco GT. I doubt you have a Sunoco dealer out there but they do make a nice 100 unleaded.

 

[Dude! Sweet!]

I ran that Sunoco 100 in my 9.5:1 358 SW tour motor that I had in my road race car. I don't know that I could tell the difference between that and C12 or something similar, but the Sunoco dealer really talked the stuff up.

 

[OldSchool]

How easily does Toluene mix with gasoline? Does it stay mixed or does it precipitate out due to different specific gravity?

Does it have a short tank life?

Does putting masking tape over the air vents help make the tank life of the fuel last longer?

Thanks. :USA:

Michael,

Have you considered AvGas?? No ethanol, low-lead and an octane rating between 105 and 115. Each batch that they get at the airport comes with a spec sheet for that particular load. It's got a very long shelf life as it's not good for a single engine airplane to have fuel issues!:ack2: I've been running 30% AvGas (100ll) mixed with 93 octane from the gas station for the last three seasons with zero fuel issues.....and it smells GOOD!!!!!

I get it from my local small airport.....Not sure if they'll sell it to you in your state, but it's worth a try. It's about $4 per gallon. A real bargain as far as I'm concerned!!!

 

[2112]

and it smells GOOD!!!!!

:sifone: :rofl:

It is available at my local airport although I don't know the cost. Honestly, compared to how much $ I spend on engines, boat and rigging, Fuel seems cheap. Convenience is a factor in that buying race fuel/toluene and hauling it around can be a PITA. The AV gas may be the ticket.

It is stable enough to sit the winter if you tape off your air vents?
.

 

[OldSchool]

:sifone: :rofl:

It is available at my local airport although I don't know the cost. Honestly, compared to how much $ I spend on engines, boat and rigging, Fuel seems cheap. Convenience is a factor in that buying race fuel/toluene and hauling it around can be a PITA. The AV gas may be the ticket.

It is stable enough to sit the winter if you tape off your air vents?
.

The guy at the airport said that two years is not uncommon, don't know about taping off the vents, someone else may know. I do treat the 93 that I mix with the AvGas. Been using the ValveTect additive this year. I used the Startron last year.

The price range this year has been between $3.70 and $4.25 per gallon. It was $4.12 last week.

 

[Dude! Sweet!]

So this is total hearsay, but I'd always been told that AvGas isn't suitable for high performance use do to some aircraft specific additives (anti-freeze and other things)... Like I said, maybe just and old wives tale, but all the race guys I knew stayed way away from AvGas.

 

[2112]

So this is total hearsay, but I'd always been told that AvGas isn't suitable for high performance use do to some aircraft specific additives (anti-freeze and other things)... Like I said, maybe just and old wives tale, but all the race guys I knew stayed way away from AvGas.

I heard it has "drying agents" in it and that you should add some 2 cycle oil.
.

 

[Sean Stinson]

I heard it has "drying agents" in it and that you should add some 2 cycle oil.
.

Toulene does boost your octane but as Chris stated the ratios are a bit out of wack, HOWEVER, it will stabilize your fuel..... I have used it many times over my racing career and all I can tell you is that the motor had a better overall burn in it and it seemed to be better for the combustion chambers and valves!!!

38 degrees is a lot of lead man.....I used to run 30 on 93 octane and 36 on 116 octane!!! What kind of cam are you running??

Mix in the av gas and you will not have any problems!!!!

 

[OldSchool]

I heard it has "drying agents" in it and that you should add some 2 cycle oil.
.

I add two ounces of Marvel's Mystery Oil for every 10 gallons of AvGas per my engine builder's advice.

 

[2112]

38 degrees is a lot of lead man.....I used to run 30 on 93 octane and 36 on 116 octane!!! What kind of cam are you running??

Well my new builds will have Madera cams but these are old ultradynes (Harold's).

110 lobe separation
.722" gross lift
270/280 degree duration

They make good hp on a single Dominator and pump gas. I haven't had any detonation problems that I know of. I did break a shaft rocker stud recently and on tear down, we saw some bearing damage but then again, the exhaust valve did not open for the 2-300 rpms it took for me to kill the motor.

I add two ounces of Marvel's Mystery Oil for every 10 gallons of AvGas per my engine builder's advice.

I use that to fog the motors for winter...good stuff.
.