Headlines
Anyone taking odds on the auto industry bail-out?
- Thread starter DollaBill
- Start date
Ahhhh...so, all plants and all UAW contracts are exactly like the one your brother's at, must be right...oooookkkkkaaaaayyyyy.
boatme
Charter Member
I tend to rant but I can not believe we don’t see this
If I want money for my company and I go to the banks I have to have a FULL BLOWN business plan in hand or they won’t talk to me.
The car guys go in looking for 25 billion dollars with no plan, and a "trust me" attitude
Their arrogance is reason alone to send the Big three packing
jayboat
Banned
pullmytrigger
Charter Member
Just so you know......I spoke to my bro yesterday he said in 8hrs he gets (2) 10min breaks and a 20 min lunch, hesays since you only get a 20 min lunch and the plant is SO huge you really only get a 10 min lunch because its a 5min walk to the caffateria one way......
The line starts at 6:30am on days.....a car comes down the line one every minute.....they re up to working 53 to 54 sec a min now......he says when he first started 24 yrs ago they worked 43 to 44 sec a min and their quality (JD Power) is much better now than then....in fact GM Oshawa has the #1 and #3 quality ratings of any plant in north and south America and that includes any manufacter including Toy/Nissan/BMW/MB.......he says that anyone who doesnt believe it is quite welcome to come to the plant and check it out he will arrange a tour (as employees can do) and "they can give us a hand"
I read him the bit about the Ford plant he says that he can say for sure that "no where in GM is like that!!!" as GM pitts plant against plant(quality,line speed, number of employees on payroll etc) and community against community (local tax breaks) when it comes time for the plants to "bid" on the right to build a car(or truck) for a specified model run, usaually 3 to 4yrs.......he said a plant like that Ford plant "would have been closed a long time ago in GM, no question about it....."
not breaking any balls, thats what he said......just so you know
The line starts at 6:30am on days.....a car comes down the line one every minute.....they re up to working 53 to 54 sec a min now......he says when he first started 24 yrs ago they worked 43 to 44 sec a min and their quality (JD Power) is much better now than then....in fact GM Oshawa has the #1 and #3 quality ratings of any plant in north and south America and that includes any manufacter including Toy/Nissan/BMW/MB.......he says that anyone who doesnt believe it is quite welcome to come to the plant and check it out he will arrange a tour (as employees can do) and "they can give us a hand"
I read him the bit about the Ford plant he says that he can say for sure that "no where in GM is like that!!!" as GM pitts plant against plant(quality,line speed, number of employees on payroll etc) and community against community (local tax breaks) when it comes time for the plants to "bid" on the right to build a car(or truck) for a specified model run, usaually 3 to 4yrs.......he said a plant like that Ford plant "would have been closed a long time ago in GM, no question about it....."
not breaking any balls, thats what he said......just so you know
fund razor
Founding Member
Offshore Ginger
New member
Chapter # 11 and restructure, the boy's and girls who work for the big three have had a long and good ride for many years . I think it is time for each and everyone to get a reality check .
Offshore Ginger
New member
I agree Mark and then blow 20 k each attending meetings using there private jets...................................:ack2:
MarylandMark
Charter Member
I'm in a union-
We work 60 minutes every hour, get (2) 15 minute breaks per hour shift and lunch is on us (6-2:30 = 8.5 hours and get paid for 8). I feel violated!
We work 60 minutes every hour, get (2) 15 minute breaks per hour shift and lunch is on us (6-2:30 = 8.5 hours and get paid for 8). I feel violated!
Ratickle
Founding Member / Super Moderator
We should not bail out anyone. Chapter 11 law allows for them to bail out themselves under a structured oversight plan.
Actually GM has the largest fleet of high milage vehicles.
Our government is too stupid and corrupt to run, period.....
And the independents also rate their cars in the top ten in quality.
RLJ676
New member
As someone in the industry (I work for GM, not UAW), it is amazing how little people know.
I'd like to make a few points.
-This is not a product driven crisis, a UAW or cost structure crisis, etc. This is a FINANCIAL MARKET issue. There is no cash to borrow, for the OEM's or their customers. This has clearly killed revenue. Last year sales were over 17 MILLION, this year we are looking at under 11 MILLION. Imagine that kind of revenue loss on your company, now make it a huge mfg company that requires cash, and tons of it? Now take away ALL credit markets, and this is exactly what you get. The banks caused this entire problem, and are the ones getting bailed out?
-Like I mentioned, the cost structure has been improved dramatically over the past few years, that is where all the cash reserves have gone (buyouts, etc)
-UAW size is down over 50% (and this isn't the 70's, they work hard and have quality). Further, they will by 2010 be competitive in costs with transplants.
-White collar costs are down over 40% since 2000 as well
-The executives have already cut their bonuses, which is a huge portion of pay. There are no raises or bonuses for anyone as well.
-To people that claim it's capitalism, let them fall. This IS NOT A CAPITALISTIC playing field.
-The imports all have large support from their governments. It comes from R&D money, currency manipulation, gov't healthcare.....etc.
-We are the only country freely letting foreigners sell here, (if we had Japan's policies we wouldn't be having this conversation, along with the fact that restricted market gives them profits with no global competition)
-The impact of failure is huge, and will cost far more than a LOAN of $25 B
-The products are world class now, costs are in line and the future is promising. The issue here is purely one of the financial markets, and their failures impacting Detroit and its customers ability to borrow.
Please check here for more info, as I tend to just get incredibly aggrevated with the avg "American's" disdain for Detroit and ignorance of what has really happened here.
www.gmfactsandfiction.com
I'd like to make a few points.
-This is not a product driven crisis, a UAW or cost structure crisis, etc. This is a FINANCIAL MARKET issue. There is no cash to borrow, for the OEM's or their customers. This has clearly killed revenue. Last year sales were over 17 MILLION, this year we are looking at under 11 MILLION. Imagine that kind of revenue loss on your company, now make it a huge mfg company that requires cash, and tons of it? Now take away ALL credit markets, and this is exactly what you get. The banks caused this entire problem, and are the ones getting bailed out?
-Like I mentioned, the cost structure has been improved dramatically over the past few years, that is where all the cash reserves have gone (buyouts, etc)
-UAW size is down over 50% (and this isn't the 70's, they work hard and have quality). Further, they will by 2010 be competitive in costs with transplants.
-White collar costs are down over 40% since 2000 as well
-The executives have already cut their bonuses, which is a huge portion of pay. There are no raises or bonuses for anyone as well.
-To people that claim it's capitalism, let them fall. This IS NOT A CAPITALISTIC playing field.
-The imports all have large support from their governments. It comes from R&D money, currency manipulation, gov't healthcare.....etc.
-We are the only country freely letting foreigners sell here, (if we had Japan's policies we wouldn't be having this conversation, along with the fact that restricted market gives them profits with no global competition)
-The impact of failure is huge, and will cost far more than a LOAN of $25 B
-The products are world class now, costs are in line and the future is promising. The issue here is purely one of the financial markets, and their failures impacting Detroit and its customers ability to borrow.
Please check here for more info, as I tend to just get incredibly aggrevated with the avg "American's" disdain for Detroit and ignorance of what has really happened here.
www.gmfactsandfiction.com
boatme
Charter Member
As I posted early on, I am not uninformed. I worked selling to the big three and the tier one and tier two suppliers (stampings, Plastics, Die castings ect…)
Take a look at my previous posts on this subject
I will not repeat all I wrote except to say I have seen how it works on the inside and have worked with the guys on the floor all the way up to SR management and you are wrong so wrong. I also sold too many of the foreign car companies such as Nippondenso, Takada, Ogihara, Yazaki and others I have a better prospective on this than 80% of the country
There is absolutely no reason for us to bail out the car companies. Let them go banko and restructure. If they go banko they are not going under. (one might)This is a scare tactic they keep propagating to the general public. They will just restructure and continue on.
Unfortunately going banko will kill allot of suppliers, but they are already strung out long way. The big three strong arm suppliers dragging out terms 90 days 120 days or longer (This is standard practice for the big three) Many suppliers carry as little as a few thousand on the books always up to millions while begging every month for some payment. I spent a lot of time not selling, but trying to collect payment on monthly shipments we made to my customers. They were ALWAYS behind on payment
The suppliers are going to go under anyway, and hopefully this will give those that remain the power to start holding the Big three accountable which will make the tier one and tier two more accountable to further back suppliers, since many suppliers addoped the “wait to pay” stance to there suppliers because there customer (Big Three) was doing it to them
Yes It all trickles down, but it trickles down BADLEY
I said it before, I have looked directly into the eyes of the devil (auto companies) and they are selling all of us a bunch of crap. Time for a cleansing and a reality check for the arrogant Unions and arrogant management It is not going to be pretty and only hurt even what I do today. We need to stop getting what we want, and start to realize what is needed
If I walked into a meeting unprepared to explain what we do, and how I was going to do it, in order for someone to give me money for a project, I would get tossed out on my ear
Yet that is what the big three did last week. Trust me I would not get a second chance if I pulled that crap. You only get one first impression and the arrogant BIG THREE proved they can’t do what needs to be done and that is to HAVE A PLAN
By By Big Guys time to reap what you sow
boatme
Charter Member
This was my first post on this subject over a week ago (for those that missed it)
We should NOT bail out the car companies
I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.
I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward
The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed
I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them
Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand
We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface
Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple
Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position
1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions
Non of this will change by handing them money
Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys
We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)
We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys
American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money
Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!
My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?
We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it
If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.
This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them
We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.
I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years
The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money
All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes
By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need
Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it
I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.
I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating
I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet
We should NOT bail out the car companies
I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.
I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward
The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed
I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them
Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand
We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface
Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple
Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position
1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions
Non of this will change by handing them money
Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys
We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)
We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys
American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money
Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!
My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?
We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it
If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.
This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them
We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.
I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years
The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money
All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes
By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need
Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it
I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.
I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating
I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet
MarylandMark
Charter Member
Yep! My union (CWA) sucks. I am actually an "agency fee payer". I resigned from the union but Maryland is not a right-to-work state so I have to pay the sorry SOB's anyway.
I say scrap all the unions!!! If you are worth a compensation package (pay, benefits, etc) you don't need a union to get it for you.
I had a better compensation package when I was at MCI (pre-scandal and pre-Verizon buying them) than I do now in a union. Phone companies are a "utility" and regulated by the Feds which means there aren't many places to work for. Made my bed and laying in it but which I could work harder to do better for myself. Don't take that as I'm unhappy- free medical/dental, work 7 miles from home, 6 figure pay w/OT, average 23 hour work week, etc. Life is good- but could be better and I'm willing to work for it but picked a career where I don't have many options to do so.
Union holding a working man down!
RLJ676
New member
Yeah, I'll trust "your expertise" since you worked in sales for tier III's or whatever as opposed to someone who's worked in various aspects for the OEM's and currently knows the industry.
You're "3 issues" are so off the mark it's not even funny.
1. Mgmt is new in 2/3 and Ford and GM have lead MAJOR RESTRUCTURING already, cutting costs by half and improving product at the same time.
2. Products behind the times??? Stick to boats, because it is OBVIOUS you are not familiar with Detroit's current reality with good products (CTS, CTS-V, Malibu, G8, Fusion, Edge, and the coming products which are common knowledge are already critically acclaimed.
3. The unions, while expensive, have been reduced in size by 50%, and as I stated, will be competitive with transplants by 2010. The problem is the burden of the retirees from a time when there were far fewer competitors and the Big 3 held all market share. Do you think it's fair they should not recieve their retirements now for some reason?????
You clearly didn't READ my post. Your post is based on YOUR experience with some suppliers that went under, so that is how business is done? That makes no sense, and neither does your whole post.
First, bankruptcy DOES NOT WORK for an OEM like a supplier. OEM's sell to the public, who expect a warranty. Survey's indicate at least 80% of customers won't buy from a bankrupt automaker, how do you think that would enable emerging, with no revenue?
Next, you ramble on about the failure of the BANK bailouts? How is that related, other than the fact Wall St caused this issue, and after being bailed out still isn't offering lending? This bridge loan is a different animal than the financial sector bailouts, and is meant to provide liquidity until the banks will start loaning again.
Further, keeping the millions that rely on the industry working IS rebuilding from the bottom, and keeping people off unemployment and paying their mortgages. This isn't a CEO issue, as those guys are set for life. They are fighting for the middle class working for them.
In all, your post really had nothing to do with the isses at hand, and seems more like a bitter remark from someone who was burnt by a bankrupt supplier.
boatme
Charter Member
Not bitter at all, I have watched this from the front and have been in more auto plants than most of the employees the two bankos I spoke of were a few years ago now
as far as what I have stated is all true, I don’t care if the CEO's were new to there jobs 6 months ago there arrogance to not even have a plan when walking in and asking for money is just down right stupid If I want money for my business I have to have a business plan not just a hand out
The new cars are way too late in coming and consolidation is what is needed in car lines
The unions, well what can be said, they made there own bed.
I like the idea of the UAW bailing out the car companies If they think it is a good idea why don’t they move to be employee owned and do the bailing out ?
As far a bitter, I think you are the bitter one watching your job go away, and quite frankly I would be upset as well, The problem is “in house” and what needs to be done is a lot different than what many would like to see done The feel good times are gone it is time for a old cleansing
Best of luck to you
MarylandMark
Charter Member
Just a general question to all- and it's been said on this thread before:
How many people do you know that is going to buy a new car/truck in the next 1-3 years if they don't have to?
I was thinking of scooping up a daily driver at these great prices but:
- if I did a trade, my trade is worthless (50K miles 06 KR SRW F350 4x4 diesel)
- fuel prices are down $1.83 87/$2.70 diesel
- what may be a great deal today could be over-paying 20% a few months from now (self-fulfilling prophecy thing )
- credit was tight but loosing up some (not mine; in general) God forbid you bought in the last 2-3 years with a 5-7 year loan. My be worth 50% of what you owe
Don't matter if the Big 3 made the best car in the world- Santa ani't delivering many any time soon any way.
How many people do you know that is going to buy a new car/truck in the next 1-3 years if they don't have to?
I was thinking of scooping up a daily driver at these great prices but:
- if I did a trade, my trade is worthless (50K miles 06 KR SRW F350 4x4 diesel)
- fuel prices are down $1.83 87/$2.70 diesel
- what may be a great deal today could be over-paying 20% a few months from now (self-fulfilling prophecy thing )
- credit was tight but loosing up some (not mine; in general) God forbid you bought in the last 2-3 years with a 5-7 year loan. My be worth 50% of what you owe
Don't matter if the Big 3 made the best car in the world- Santa ani't delivering many any time soon any way.
pullmytrigger
Charter Member
hey maybe the union should buy the company.....Harley Davidson was brought to the brink of bankruptcy by the Japanese then didnt the employees buy the place, turn it around and now they cant build enough of them?
MarylandMark
Charter Member
8/08 Harley was bought by Italian motorcycle manufacturer MV Agusta
