Wow...almost 12 boats race in Miami!

[Ratickle]

Here's a shot of JBS on their last lap. Coming out of the turn about 200 yds before the start/finish line. Easy to see what is getting ready to happen.

Sweet pic Jay. Too bad it's showing issues.

 

[boostbros]

steve david are you guys ever going back to piston engines a lot of us lost interest in the unlimiteds with the overhyped blow torches the best class now is those supercharged alky class they just rip and sound great! i hope offshore racing realizes we come to see and hear the big engines ripping it up theres no sound like a supercharged V8 full song coming into keywest! the turbines sound like they are looking for a runway to take off if none is found they just drive around like t2 stated

 

[Knot 4 Me]

steve david are you guys ever going back to piston engines a lot of us lost interest in the unlimiteds with the overhyped blow torches the best class now is those supercharged alky class they just rip and sound great! i hope offshore racing realizes we come to see and hear the big engines ripping it up theres no sound like a supercharged V8 full song coming into keywest! the turbines sound like they are looking for a runway to take off if none is found they just drive around like t2 stated

Agree. I attend one Unlimited Hydro race. It was back in '88 at Madison, IN. The Bud and Miller boats were cool with their turbines but what really got your heart pumping was when O'Boy Oberto went by with that Rolls Royce Merlin engine screaming! .

 

[T2x]

Rich,
Take care Rich, and Good luck to those who believe they are invincible

Steve
U-1

Steve who?........

Seriously...

The entire F-16 canopy and safety cockpit concept came from Unlimited Hydros where it was pioneered in 1984 and 85. We (Conquest) got the first F16 canopies for Offshore use in 1986 and they were back in the shop waiting for installation on the Jesse James When Mark Lavin was killed in Key West as a result of a stuff. The canopies almost certainly would have saved his life..... a lesson that will never be lost on me.

I think it goes without saying that the Unlimited Hydro crews know much more about cockpit safety designs and high speed crashes than all of the designers in offshore combined.....especially those who have had no fatalities or major injuries in their boats.........yet.

I am very concerned about the cavalier attitude that some builders take, thinking that they know "enough"...... because of "experience" or an "engineering degree". The fact is that this is not an exact science and it takes years of trial and error, and real world testing, sometimes at the expense of lives, to develop better and better systems and technology.
You will not do this with a slide rule, or cad cam, or simulation programs.
The fact that the unlimiteds have mandated leg trays, helmet "halo" areas (to prevent basal skull fractures), rear deflectors, and countless other improvements that are just as necessary, if not more so, in 200 mph cats is a very clear mandate IMHO. In light of this I ask all of you owners of ultra high speed cats to rethink your safety systems......and please remember safety technology is a journey, not a destination...... none of us has "arrived" nor will we.

Steve David (current Unlimited Hydro National Champion, experienced performance pleasure boater...and a sought after Offshore racer) is a good friend and a man of the highest integrity. He is also much more knowledgeable about high speed crash scenarios than any of the stars of Offshore. When he talks, every one of you should listen.

T2x

 

[T2x]

Rich,

I would like to here your opinion on Adrian Thompsons VSV and the safety cockpit which includes 1" bullet proof glass. They have had the 50' over 90 MPH. Cuts through the waves susposed to ride like a dream, what could this concept bring to real offshore racing? Have you ever explored advancing this design, I know it's only about 90 years old?

This is a continuation of a design that was first advanced in 1982 called the "Candu". That hull featured a stainless steel razor sharp knife blade on a bow almost identical to the VSV. The original project was the result of a collaboration between sail boat designers (displacement hull) and offshore racing powerplants from Mercruiser. Over the years a small fortune has been poured into this concept, most recently in that ill fated, Bio diesel, around the world nightmare, which incorporated outriggers to counter the obvious lateral stability problems with a narrow bow steering design like the VSV (it's a broach waiting to happen IMHO).

Bottom line if this design has any merit as a monohull concept, there have been ample opportunities for the public to embrace it. On the other hand, the wave piercing concept has been very successful on some displacement catamarans in the past few years.

T2x

 

[Sean H]

I don't think John is a member here, so I will forward this over here...

Obviously everyone here at Mystic is devastated by what happened with one of our boats last weekend. As I have stated before we take great pride in what we build and work very hard at it. This boat did have a problem in Key West that was repaired but showed back up in Miami and unfortunately grew into a much larger issue.

In a meeting on Monday morning with Jeff and Joe from JBS I personally made an offer to take the hull with the issues back and put them in a brand new x brace structure hull which i have in stock so they can continue their season as uninterrupted as possible. JBS was the only boat that was built without it and NONE of the other boats have had structural problems. The pickle fork that came off Longlite then Geico I knocked off myself in Ocean City last year was a removable pickle fork which is not done on any of the boats any more.

I am standing behind my product now and i always will. I have the best racers in the US in my hulls and there is a reason for that. I certainly don't want to see this forum dissolve into some petty ****ing match over my product.

Best

John Cosker
President
Mystic Powerboats Inc.

 

[Knot 4 Me]

Great to see Mystic taking care of JBS. John is a class act.

 

[T2x]

I don't think John is a member here, so I will forward this over here...

I presume this is from OSO. Listen, no one is taking Mystic to task for hull damage, because, in racing, sh*t happens. Every reputable race boat builder has replaced hulls. I replaced two early Shadow Cats for forward entry structural issues and chalked it up to R&D, and the early Chris Cats suffered multiple hull failures until Don Pruett kicked some serious *ss in the laminating shop. But this is the very point here.....you can't count on your hull to be bulletproof and the faster you go....the more risk of hull failure you develop.

The whole target is not to point fingers at boat construction...but rather to try and elevate cockpit and driver safety standards. It's nice that the builder is taking responsibility for a "mistake" and I applaud his integrity. It is also sobbering to think that if one aspect of a boat was not perfect, then what about the other structural decisions regarding the cockpit?

If the result of all this is to have buyers and builders come together and really pay close attention to the occupant's safety....OVER....all other aspects of design, construction, graphics and performance..... My work here is done.

Good racing.

T2x

 

[Sean Stinson]

John has always been a class act....And the boat he has in stock I had the privledge of crawling through it at the factory.....Beautiful piece!!!!!!

 

[Sean Stinson]

I just spoke with him on the phone and personally asked him to sign up up if he hadn't done so!!!!

 

[cigdaze]

Rich,
You're on the money (again) on why our canopies in Unlimiteds are "almost" perfect. Almost because we have lost a driver in the 21 years in which canopies have been mandatory. George Stratton was killed at San Diego in 2000 in a freak blowover. He landed in shallow water and it appears the spar entered the front of the canopy and the resulting implosion of water snapped his neck. In those 21 years there have been over 125 blowovers in excess of 180 MPH with 4 more serious accidents, yet all drivers survived. One was Dave Vilwock in the Bud in TriCities in app. 97. In that accident the boat landed on it's canopy lid backwards at about 165 MPH and the rear of the cockpit collapsed and crushed Dave from the back. He was not breathing at the scene and revived by the dive team. The canopy shattered and severed part of his hand. Since then all of our cockpits have been redesigned to have a deflection shield on the back side. Another accident was about 93 in Kansas City when George Woods blew over the Tide at about 200MPH. The boat did a complete 360 degree landing right side up. However it landed flat and resulted in a compresson fracture in Georges back. As a result of that accident the seating has been redesigned to support the back in a different manner.
In app 86 Steve Reynolds blew over the Cellular One at Mdison at about 200MPH and the boat sheared a sponson. The air bottle departed which caused one set of problems. Since then, the air bottles have been placed inside the cockpit in a specific mounting technique that would prevent that from happening again. Further we learned that a neck can stretch pretty far and thus, clearance between the helmet and the canopy have been expanded to no less than 4 inches. The 4th. accident with serious injury was Mark Evans in the Llumar in Detroit in about 2001. He blew over at over at about 195 MPH entering the roostertail turn in front of the Detroit Yacht Club and did a 360 as well. The landing compressed his leg and caused a severe multiple break. As a result of that accident cockpits were redesigned with either "leg trays" or other structural changes to allow for leg support in the event of such a compression.
In our category (Unlimited Hydro) the safety rules will be changed immediately when a need is clearly expressed by accident results whether in our class or events elsewhere.
In 95 I blew over at Madison in the T-Plus at 203 MPH and did a 180. The boat was badly fractured but the cockpit and canopy were fine as was I. In 98 in Seattle I blew over the same boat in turn 3 at 184 MPH and again the boat was fractured but the cockpit and canopy stayed intact.
We've learned so much, yet sadly at the expense of others lives or injuries.
As for your opinion that the large offshore trubine cats will suffer significant injuries if they go over at above 180 MPH, I completely agree (and maybe much less than 180 MPH). It is only a matter of time before we read of tragedy in that class. it's just far too much surface area to take that impact without something giving. of course, that's only an opinion, and we won't know for certain until the accident happens. I think at that point, it will be too late to warn anyone......As I read various postings about how fantastic their rigs are, multiple cameras, numerous computer feedbacks, etc. I am reminded of the design team of the Titanic.....

Take care Rich, and Good luck to those who believe they are invincible

Steve
U-1

Many thanks, Steve! Great post.

 

[Excalibur Racing]

This is a continuation of a design that was first advanced in 1982 called the "Candu". That hull featured a stainless steel razor sharp knife blade on a bow almost identical to the VSV. The original project was the result of a collaboration between sail boat designers (displacement hull) and offshore racing powerplants from Mercruiser. Over the years a small fortune has been poured into this concept, most recently in that ill fated, Bio diesel, around the world nightmare, which incorporated outriggers to counter the obvious lateral stability problems with a narrow bow steering design like the VSV (it's a broach waiting to happen IMHO).

Bottom line if this design has any merit as a monohull concept, there have been ample opportunities for the public to embrace it. On the other hand, the wave piercing concept has been very successful on some displacement catamarans in the past few years.

T2x

Since there is a patent on this by Adrian could you design off his platform or is he the only one that can until the patent expires or you change it enough that his patent doesn't apply?

 

[Scotty B]

We have been working with Dave Vilwock on the safety aspects of our boat and have added features to boat at his suggestions. We take safety very seriously on our team. We already have set up meetings for next week to inspect and suggest refits of our boats after this past weekends events. I could care less about the insults thrown about about the turbine class with regard to racing etc., but none of you know what we do with regard to safety and I can assure you its more than any offshore team on the planet

 

[Mystic]

I'm sorry I wasn't a member of this board so Sean Stinson alerted me to this thread.

As stated above I am going to stand behind my product and put Joe and Jeff into a new boat. They are meeting with John Arruda today to go over the rigging transfer details.

The water intruded into the cockpit through holes cut in the structure during rigging. When the bottom delaminated we lost one bulkhead in the sponson but the safety cage around the occupants STAYED IN TACT. In light of this on all of my boats I will call them back to the shop after rigging and put structural safety shields over all rigging holes. I have already discussed this with some of my teams.

I am very concerned about the cavalier attitude that some builders take, thinking that they know "enough"...... because of "experience" or an "engineering degree". - From T2X.

Really?? Do you know me? I never know enough and life is a constant evolution. If every entrepreneur or person responsible for technological advances were looked at as cavalier and ridiculed where would we be? I like the styling of some dugout canoes but they would be a pretty boring race.

I have talked to almost all of my racers in the last couple of days about upgrades revisions and ways to make the boats safer and more advanced. I welcome all of their input, it only makes my boats better. Is that cavalier?

I've been in this industry nearly 20 years and there are those whose "time in" eclipses mine. I listen to them very carefully. I don't watch these posts much so if anyone would like to discuss this with me in person my office number is 386-736-451-0047, my cell phone is 386-451-0047, and my home phone is 386-760-9166. Even better stop by and see what we do here.

Best regards,

John Cosker
Mystic Powerboats Inc.

 

[Scotty B]

John, I will see you next week and thank you for the call to us.

 

[cigdaze]

Welcome to SERIOUSOFFSHORE, John. Glad to have ya.

 

[Sean Stinson]

John I think you need to read Rich's post #148 i don't think he was trying to wind youup or point the finger but was more interested in the safety aspects of current high speed boats......

ScottyB take it easy bro....I know you guys go ver the top on safety. I had a conversation with Mark Evans who I have known for years who told me about some of the things you guys are doing!!!! The fact of the matter is Turbines are here to stay whether somebody likes it or not!!!!

 

[Chris]

John,

Thanks for stopping by. This place gets better each time someone of your caliber chooses to spend your time here.

Steve David,

As always, a pleasure to hear of someone of your great level of accomplishment.

 

[Ratickle]

We have been working with Dave Vilwock on the safety aspects of our boat and have added features to boat at his suggestions. We take safety very seriously on our team. We already have set up meetings for next week to inspect and suggest refits of our boats after this past weekends events. I could care less about the insults thrown about about the turbine class with regard to racing etc., but none of you know what we do with regard to safety and I can assure you its more than any offshore team on the planet

Scotty, good to know. Bottom line, we care about you guys.

 

[phragle]

John, welcome to the board. I admire your statement. racing is experimentation. failures happen from time to time, equipment fails, operators fail, designs fail, it's the nature of the beast. what matters is what happens afterwards. If lessons are learned and changes happen, whatever went wrong is no longer a failure but a stepping stone to something better. Not that my opinion means anything, but the man who steps up immediatly and makes it right is good in my book.