So a couple of guys pulled up for lunch in their boats.

[T2x]

I know it's not the same thing, but when I was running world record trials in RC boats, we could never get the 4 point hydros to run as fast as the 3points. We did have to run with a fin on one of the front sponsons though, to make them go straight.

Same issue in straights for the full size, or was it only because of the turns the Unlimiteds went with 3 points?

Not all hydros are the same...for instance the Switzer 4 point wing featured a fully functional air foil...unlike most other hydros and was considerably faster due to the ground effect management that it featured. The more traditional Power Cat version (see below) from the same era was no where near as fast with the same power......I don't think that 3 points get around turns better than 4 points and in fact some of the best hydros have wider tunnels and "mini pads" at the rear on either side of the center prop shaft. Since Wings have yet to use the turn fins (I just had a set made for mine) as used on most three points today, the question of which design turns better is till open for debate. Certainly no design that is completely airborne can turn at all until it is brought in for a "landing" or utilizes a fin as a turning fulcrum.

As far as scale models are concerned, there are many aspects that do not translate directly with size. For instance water and air density do not correlate to changes in scale speeds. ( Water is harder at 100 mph than at 25 mph with a 1/4 scale model).

By the way I believe that the Power Cat 4 point would have been a LOT faster with full length air traps.

T2x

 

[Ratickle]

Not all hydros are the same...for instance the Switzer 4 point wing featured a fully functional air foil...unlike most other hydros and was considerably faster due to the ground effect management that it featured. The more traditional Power Cat version (see below) from the same era was no where near as fast with the same power......I don't think that 3 points get around turns better than 4 points and in fact some of the best hydros have wider tunnels and "mini pads" at the rear on either side of the center prop shaft. Since Wings have yet to use the turn fins (I just had a set made for mine) as used on most three points today, the question of which design turns better is till open for debate. Certainly no design that is completely airborne can turn at all until it is brought in for a "landing" or utilizes a fin as a turning fulcrum.

As far as scale models are concerned, there are many aspects that do not translate directly with size. For instance water and air density do not correlate to changes in scale speeds. ( Water is harder at 100 mph than at 25 mph with a 1/4 scale model).

By the way I believe that the Power Cat 4 point would have been a LOT faster with full length air traps.

T2x

Thanks, Sweet Pics

By the way, we got to 87 with our fastest RC and now they've gone over 120. And you're right, we did put mini-pads on the back in race trim vs. straight record trim.

If you look at the high speed video of the record passes in slow motion, the boats would look exactly like the picture you showed, except the front "turn fin" would touch once in awhile. Rest of the time, 1/3 prop only.

We did try a wing with a RC helicopter gyro connected, but it slowed us down.

How did you design your turn fin? Did Steve David have any input from unlimited or something from stuff you tried before?

 

[T2x]

How did you design your turn fin? Did Steve David have any input from unlimited or something from stuff you tried before?

George Linder re-designed them using as a basis an original set we have from one of Stu Hayim's 46 foot Skater race boats (long story). Bottom line they are a variation of Current High speed lower unit skeg designs. (wedge back, no shark finning). We are using two slightly shorter fins rather than a single long piece, so the boat will be comfortable turning in either direction and neutral in a straight line.

If I tell you any more, Triple Digits will be outside of our shop with the night vision goggles on again, and we wouldn't want that......


T2x

 

[Ratickle]

If I tell you any more, Triple Digits will be outside of our shop with the night vision goggles on again, and we wouldn't want that......


T2x

:rofl: :sifone: :rofl:

 

[Trim'd Up]

Speaking of Switzers...I bet you know this one T2x. Actually, I think we discussed it on another forum a long time ago. I drive by it everyday. Snapped a pic with the phone a couple of days ago.
Chad

 

[MarylandMark]

I bet you know this one T2x.

I'll also try to get Kitson to bring the Miss Diablo.

Have you ever asked them for a ride Trim'd? I would be all over that!

 

[T2x]

Speaking of Switzers...I bet you know this one T2x. Actually, I think we discussed it on another forum a long time ago. I drive by it everyday. Snapped a pic with the phone a couple of days ago.
Chad

That's the Miss Diablo which has been completely restored to original racing specifications by the owner, Bob Valachovic from Schenectady, NY. He comes from a long and respected family of boat racers (70 years in racing) and the Diablo is just one of his collector pieces. The reason the Diablo is in the St Louis area is Bob not only restored the boat and rigging, he tracked down the driver, multi time World Champion and my buddy, Kenny Kitson, who hails from your neighborhood. Kenny brings the hull to various Vintage events and reunions and does demonstration "flybys". Current Champ boat driver, Lynn Simburger does the maintenance work on it.

As far as history is concerned Miss Diablo won the 9 hour Outboard World Championship on Lake Havasu (Kenny drove alone) and held the dual engine flying kilo record at over 117 mph (Kenny had her over 122 exiting the traps)..... in 1968 or so...with a pair of 135 Hp in line Merc "Stackers".....and no power trim...using his foot to control and "feather" the aileron for hours on end. Kenny is the only guy I listen to about driving my own wing "Dust'n the Wind II", since I raced damn near everything but wings back in the day.

Miss Diablo (for good reason) also graced the Champion Spark Plug ads for many years. Yes, she's fast........ and amazingly nimble in mixed choppy water (just don't run her in swells or over large cruiser wakes at speed).

Finally, yes I know a little about her........... She's number two on my all time most revered race boat list.

T2x

 

[T2x]

Here's the Diablo after years in a warehouse and before restoration......

 

[T2x]

This is my number one choice......

Probably, the fastest and most beautiful wing of all, Carl Kiekhaefer's personal hull, a custom built one-off by the Switzer brothers, driven by Odell Lewis and Dave Craig, apparently only at Lake X. Dave Craig told me he wrecked it trying to turn it as tightly as possible at full throttle, per the "Old Man's" orders.

If there's a race boat heaven, I'm sure St Peter met it with his crash helmet and jacket on at the Pearly Gates.

T2x

 

[Trim'd Up]

Have you ever asked them for a ride Trim'd? I would be all over that!

No, but I intend to. I have only met him a couple of times, and didn't realize who he was until later. Next time I meet him, it will be on my list of talking points. :sifone:

 

[Ratickle]

This is my number one choice......

Probably, the fastest and most beautiful wing of all, Carl Kiekhaefer's personal hull, a custom built one-off by the Switzer brothers, driven by Odell Lewis and Dave Craig, apparently only at Lake X. T2x

Great pic. Pilot's license required?

 

[Rik]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.

 

[TrippM]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.

That's 1350 Rik. I think that is a pair of the 1350 BP's

 

[T2x]

Rich, it must be the angle of the pic on Diablo, but am I reading it correctly that the engine cowling says "350" ??

Any clear shots of the bottom? I am trying to see the 4 point.

Rik:

They are 1350's.....135 Hp each.

Here is a shot of the very first prototype bottom....It's the clearest I have....but had no external airtraps (added later).

The second shot is my hull which is not as clear...but is so dark because of the air traps which act like a skirt from the front to the back steps.

The last shot is Jim Mertens running at Parker, AZ (I think) with a wing and you can just see the forward sponson steps peeking out from the bottom.

Unlike most hydros (and some of the Conquest Cats we built), the wings have skirts on the outside of the sponsons rather than on the inner edges of the tunnel.

T2x

 

[T2x]

A few more pics.......

 

[T2x]

One other thing.........

If anybody feels like running out and designing a wing concept boat.....a word of caution.

Dave Switzer is the only one who ever got the design right.

This attempt, by famed left coast, outboard race boat builder DeSilva, resulted in 3 hulls being built.....2 of them ended up in fatal accidents....... the third hull (pictured) won the Parker Enduro, but was put in a crusher because of the risk.

 

[T2x]

One of the most successful Switzer Wing drivers was a guy named Jan Schoonover from Lima, Ohio (see the article below).

Like so many racers (bless their little pea pickin' hearts) he showed his appreciation by trying to design, build and sell his own version of the boat that made him famous.......

He made a few (also below)and they loped and ran so badly in their first races..he later switched to a copy of the Austrian Shultz designs..... The first full tunnel hull to hit U.S. shores.

T2x

 

[JoeD]

In 1975 I traded a 72 VW beetle for a used 1968 Carlson /Glastron tunnel hull with a mercury 115 short shaft,after I trashed that motor I purhased a brand new Merc 1500xs motor (155hp ) from Kovals Marina and then had Dick Odea order me a prop----boy I thought I had something there.:26:

 

[T2x]

In 1975 I traded a 72 VW beetle for a used 1968 Carlson /Glastron tunnel hull with a mercury 115 short shaft,after I trashed that motor I purhased a brand new Merc 1500xs motor (155hp -$1650) from Kovals Marina and then had Dick Odea order me a prop----boy I thought I had something there.:26:

10 years earlier...Linder was bitten by the same "Skateboard bug".

We rigged this nightmare at K&K outboard for him when I worked there.......

Fastest I got it up to was about 80....with SSM's....one time..... after hitting a very small ripple.... usually it ran 72 or so.

T2x

 

[JoeD]

Wow twins------mine was already to heavy in the rear with a single.