Throttles That Stay Open.

[MarylandMark]

What about the cars with push button start/stop...they won't turn off while in gear right? But will they turn off in neutral?

Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but Toyota recommends taking one of following actions:

If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.

Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.

If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.

If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.

If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.

 

[sledge]

Cool...so 3 secs on the button will kill it even if in gear. I wonder how many people know that?

 

[phragle]

A large tree will stop the vehicle just as effectively.........

 

[MacGyver]

with much more intense pm schedules etc.

True.

 

[MacGyver]

A large tree will stop the vehicle just as effectively.........

Unfortunately, thats whats happening to some Toyota owners.

 

[Bobcat]

The Toyotas in question were all built in America.

My bad.... I thought it was in Texas:leaving:

 

[BUIZILLA]

every car with working brakes is designed to overpower a full throttle counter peddle..

i've had several Audi's, every one with a turbo...have one now with a turbo... no way in hell will the throttle overpower the brakes... no way no how..

 

[Edward R. Cozzi]

I started this thread to hopefully help stop the PANIC involved in a situation like this. If this happens to one of your children or your wife, at least they will not be caught totally unaware and maybe be able to safely keep the vehicle under control. I am confident that if Susans Lexus does it, she will be able to cope with the situation.

Hopefully it never gets to the stage where the physics of brakes over full-throttle is needed.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

every car with worvking brakes is designed to overpower a full throttle counter peddle..

i've had several Audi's, every one with a turbo...have one now with a turbo... no way in hell will the throttle overpower the brakes... no way no how..

actually you are incorrect....Consumer reports showed how the motor will overpower the brakes in one of their tests:



Toyota recently recalled millions of vehicles because of a possible problem with sudden acceleration.

But Consumer Reports just completed an in-depth analysis of government data and found that Toyota isn't the only manufacturer with complaints.

At Consumer Reports' test track, engineer Jake Fisher simulates a sudden unintended acceleration. Even though the brake is fully engaged, he can't stop the car.

"As hard as we put our foot on the brake, the car slowed down a lot, but wouldn't come to a complete stop," said Fisher.

Consumer Reports' analysis of government data from the 2008 model year shows that sudden-acceleration incidents aren't limited to one manufacturer.

More than 40 percent of sudden-acceleration complaints involve Toyotas. Ford came in second with 28 percent, and other companies also had complaints.

But it is possible to design a car where the brake can bring the car to a stop?

"Some manufacturers, particularly European companies, offer a technology called Smart Throttle. This allows the brake pedal to override the accelerator," said Fisher. "And this is technology that Toyota will be looking to add to production in the near future, as well as retrofit to some existing models."

While experts with Consumer Reports say that the risk of sudden acceleration is low, it is also important to know what to do: apply the brakes firmly, and put the car in neutral without taking your foot off the brake.

The engine will rev, but you'll be able to bring the car to a stop and turn it off.

Consumer Reports says if your car suddenly accelerates, you can be too flustered to remember what to do.

So, it is also a good idea to take your car to an empty parking lot and practice shifting into neutral - so if it does happen - you'll be prepared.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

One of the bigger cases involving Lexus and multiple fatalities (driver was a State Trooper):

Four people died Friday when a Lexus sedan lost control on the highway, crashed near Mission Gorge Road in Santee and burst into flames.

CHP spokesperson, Brian Pennings said the agency believes its officer Mark Saylor, 45, a 19-year veteran of the CHP, was killed in the accident.

Another CHP officer, Mike May, Saylor’s friend and co-worker was visiting the scene of the accident Sunday when he told NBCSanDiego that the three other victims in the crash included Saylor’s wife Cleofe, daughter Mahala and brother-in-law Chris Lasterlla.

After May put flowers on the spot where the accident happened at northbound Highway 125 and Mission Gorge Road, he said, "I know Mark did everything he could to prevent this. I know he was just calm and kept his faith in God."

CHP investigators said they received a 911 call before 7 p.m. Friday from Saylor's wife Cleofe saying their car’s accelerator was stuck.

Witnesses reported seeing a Lexus heading northbound on 125 weaving through traffic at a high rate of speed. CHP officials said the driver tried to make a left turn when the freeway ended at Mission Gorge Road, but he was going too fast and struck a Ford Explorer.

The Lexus then broke through a fence and struck a dirt embankment, catapulting it through the air more than 100 feet. The vehicle landed in dense vegetation near a riverbed.

"The car ended up on its wheels and caught on fire, which caused a small brush fire," officer Brian Pennings said Sunday.

 

[BUIZILLA]

actually you are incorrect....Consumer reports showed how the motor will overpower the brakes in one of their tests:

.

I don't care what CP says, bring me any factory built car you want, wire the throttle, and i'll make it stop... :driving:

 

[Ratickle]

One of the bigger cases involving Lexus and multiple fatalities (driver was a State Trooper):

A Lexus is just an expensive Toyota.....

 

[sledge]

There's a big difference between keeping a stopped car stopped, and trying to stop a speeding car with a stuck throttle if it goes WFO and isn't taken out of gear.

 

[sledge]

Four people died Friday when a Lexus sedan lost control on the highway, crashed near Mission Gorge Road in Santee and burst into flames.

That was one of the first incident's of Toyota's problems wasn't it? Happened a while ago? But how does a 19 yr CHP vet not throw the shifter into neutral at the first sign of a problem? The guy went for miles and miles stuck at full throttle....

 

[Airpacker]

drive by wire has been around for a long time ( over 10 yrs on some vehicles ). With this exception ( not the rule ) Toyota has just proven that they can screw up too. The throttle pedal sensors are not one but multiple sensors in one unit ( read redundancy ). The actual throttle blade angle sensors are multiples too. All sensor failures result in NO throttle opening, not WOT.
This will prove to be a stray voltage signal between the PCM and the throttle control module or a software glitch. They will spend millions on the problem and a billion on Public Relations to make everyone forget about it.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

That was one of the first incident's of Toyota's problems wasn't it? Happened a while ago? But how does a 19 yr CHP vet not throw the shifter into neutral at the first sign of a problem? The guy went for miles and miles stuck at full throttle....

Yes it did happen a few years ago.

A. Car wasn't his regular ride, it was a loaner car with push button start (his car didn't have that option)
B. Push button start/stop won't disengage unless you hold it for 3-5 seconds, he was just pushing the button.

They were on the phone with 911 outlining the issues so they were trying to make it stop/ lots of confusion going on.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

I don't care what CP says, bring me any factory built car you want, wire the throttle, and i'll make it stop... :driving:

I think it has to do with power brakes vacuum pressure, it builds up as the motor slows to idle and under full throttle it has very little pressure rendering the brakes useless (going off memory, article outlined why it didn't work even jamming on the brakes).

Have you ever tried to stop a power brake vehicle that didn't have the "power" brakes working? Pump your brakes on a parked car 5 times, then roll it down the driveway without the engine running and try to stop it.....you can stand on the pedal with two feet and it is still very tough to stop. Now think of that example with a car going 100 MPH......

 

[BUIZILLA]

NHTSA mandated that car manufacturers selling vehicles in the US must design brake systems,and prove they would stop a vehicle when WFO... I don't know the speed that was required, but there IS a publication outlining it... after the Audi debacle this procedure was mandated late 80's... between using the foot brake, and parking brake, a full stop condition was mandated.. that's about when all position disc brakes became common... Kelsey Hayes had their a$$ handed to them in the '95-'98 window for defective GM ABS modules.. when the shift interlock came about, things became easier to prove towards driver error.. the Calif Toyo driver could have shifted to neutral if he pushed on the brake hard enough, the engine may have gone on the rev limiter and he could have stopped the car, he, apparently, made NO attempt to do so, for whatever reason..

rumor has it, the current goofy Toyo fix involves a *shim* somewhere..

your in the car biz, go grab any car off the lot and try it..

 

[JupiterSunsation]

NHTSA mandated that car manufacturers selling vehicles in the US must design brake systems,and prove they would stop a vehicle when WFO... I don't know the speed that was required, but there IS a publication outlining it... after the Audi debacle this procedure was mandated late 80's... between using the foot brake, and parking brake, a full stop condition was mandated.. that's about when all position disc brakes became common... Kelsey Hayes had their a$$ handed to them in the '95-'98 window for defective GM ABS modules.. when the shift interlock came about, things became easier to prove towards driver error.. the Calif Toyo driver could have shifted to neutral if he pushed on the brake hard enough, the engine may have gone on the rev limiter and he could have stopped the car, he, apparently, made NO attempt to do so, for whatever reason..

rumor has it, the current goofy Toyo fix involves a *shim* somewhere..

your in the car biz, go grab any car off the lot and try it..

Buz......I am not in the car business, never have been.

I think the Audi 5000 problem was with the car coming out of gear not actually a braking issue. Back then they could be shifted into R or D without depressing the brake pedal. I think the car would idle high and "catch" when it was being shifted into gear causing it to lurch forward/backward before anyone could stop the motion (via the brakes). I have had 3 Audi's...wasn't in love with the two A6 2.7 twin turbos but the A8L was one of my favorite cars.

 

[Ted]

NHTSA mandated that car manufacturers selling vehicles in the US must design brake systems,and prove they would stop a vehicle when WFO... I don't know the speed that was required, but there IS a publication outlining it... after the Audi debacle this procedure was mandated late 80's... between using the foot brake, and parking brake, a full stop condition was mandated.. that's about when all position disc brakes became common... Kelsey Hayes had their a$$ handed to them in the '95-'98 window for defective GM ABS modules.. when the shift interlock came about, things became easier to prove towards driver error.. the Calif Toyo driver could have shifted to neutral if he pushed on the brake hard enough, the engine may have gone on the rev limiter and he could have stopped the car, he, apparently, made NO attempt to do so, for whatever reason..

rumor has it, the current goofy Toyo fix involves a *shim* somewhere..

your in the car biz, go grab any car off the lot and try it..

There is no doubt that from a standing stop the brakes will override the engine and hold the car still, power assist or not. But the issue here is WOT while already moving. Although you may be able to drag the car down eventually (assuming the brake fluid doesn't start to boil) the distance required could be incredible. And in the panic steering and control of the vehicle would be secondary. It is still amazing to me that when the original accident happened and they were on the cell and all that, no one thought to just shift to neutral, truly sad.