The Last Truck documentary on HBO........

[phragle]

I have said it before, and I will say it again....

(this is not all the problems..just identifyin two)

1. the line worker is unskilled labor. I can teach a jr. high school kid to put part A on part B and tighten a bolt. It is not worth $15~$25 an hour pls benefits. Inflated labor prices will either overprice the product for market resulting in failure or cuts in quality have to be made.

2. You cannot blame nor punish the retiree for the problems. A contract was made, he fullfilled his obligation... whether the contrat was right, wrong or indifferent. If I negotiated a deal to buy your boat, signed the papers, then took the boat home.... Next I found that I couldn't afford to run the boat because my payments to you were cutting into my fuel and beer budget... so I called you up and said, "sorryIm not going to make any more payments....but I am keeping the boat" you would come a bit unglued, would you not??

 

[JupiterSunsation]

I have said it before, and I will say it again....

(this is not all the problems..just identifyin two)

1. the line worker is unskilled labor. I can teach a jr. high school kid to put part A on part B and tighten a bolt. It is not worth $15~$25 an hour pls benefits. Inflated labor prices will either overprice the product for market resulting in failure or cuts in quality have to be made.

2. You cannot blame nor punish the retiree for the problems. A contract was made, he fullfilled his obligation... whether the contrat was right, wrong or indifferent. If I negotiated a deal to buy your boat, signed the papers, then took the boat home.... Next I found that I couldn't afford to run the boat because my payments to you were cutting into my fuel and beer budget... so I called you up and said, "sorryIm not going to make any more payments....but I am keeping the boat" you would come a bit unglued, would you not??

Part 2- totally agree

Part 1- Few questions for your analogy:

What is the job worth when minimum wage is now $7.25 an hour? Keep in mind the work is physical, not totally unskilled. I know educated people that cannot change a tire.

If you pay low wages, do you make up for it by offering higher than normal benefits? This was the union/city employee tactic for years. Sh!tty job with good benefits.

What do you do when the $10 an hour starting worker has been there for 10 years and is now making $15 an hour ($.50 an hour a year wage increase)? Is this worker now overpaid for doing the same job?

What did you think of Henry Ford's idea of building cars that even the assembly worker could afford to own? Seems to me a reasonable philosphy on both ends, decent wages for decent products. This analogy doesn't work in the go fast industry though!

 

[Ratickle]

I have said it before, and I will say it again....

(this is not all the problems..just identifyin two)

1. the line worker is unskilled labor. I can teach a jr. high school kid to put part A on part B and tighten a bolt. It is not worth $15~$25 an hour pls benefits. Inflated labor prices will either overprice the product for market resulting in failure or cuts in quality have to be made.

2. You cannot blame nor punish the retiree for the problems. A contract was made, he fullfilled his obligation... whether the contrat was right, wrong or indifferent. If I negotiated a deal to buy your boat, signed the papers, then took the boat home.... Next I found that I couldn't afford to run the boat because my payments to you were cutting into my fuel and beer budget... so I called you up and said, "sorryIm not going to make any more payments....but I am keeping the boat" you would come a bit unglued, would you not??

I'm gonna disagree with line two. There was nothing in the contract that guarantees any benefits if the company goes bankrupt. Ask the guys who dealt with National Marine about buying boats with contracts and having a company go under......

So, if your contract helps force the company out of business, too bad. Sorry, but too bad.

 

[Ratickle]

I have said it before, and I will say it again....

(this is not all the problems..just identifyin two)

1. the line worker is unskilled labor. I can teach a jr. high school kid to put part A on part B and tighten a bolt. It is not worth $15~$25 an hour pls benefits. Inflated labor prices will either overprice the product for market resulting in failure or cuts in quality have to be made.

And, on line one, if the people buying the cars can afford them, and the market will bear the price and the labor costs, fine. Doesn't matter if you pay someone thousands to catch moles and gophers like my sister does. The truck and SUV lines, which were built by the same people under the same wages and benefits, were very profitable.

I will repeat over and over again, things were going okay in the US until our government changed the rules to favor overseas companies to improve their re-election chances by receiving campaign money from overseas entities.

There is not one single item which can be pointed to that caused our situation more than that.

If there is, I'm all ears.

 

[THEJOKER]

I have 30 employees and they get paid every Friday for the job they did the week before. They all have insurance and a good job. We've been in business for 30 years and have never laid of a single employee but if we take a down turn and something unforseen happens that we have to have a redcution in our workforce , we'll have to lay them off. We'll start at the bottom and try and protect the senority employees. We have a sign hanging in our office " Plan ahead - when Noah built the ark it was not raining"!

 

[phragle]

Paul, I understand your point and agree with it to a certain point. But the fact is the world has changed. Evolution if you call it that. Think of two tribes of cavemen competing for the same food source, one the US and tribe two the third world. Tribe one learned that they could throw rocks at small animals and hunt more efficiently, they could also throw stones at tribe two to defend their hunt. Tribe two got very hungry and developed spears to hunt and defend more efficiently(modern production with less rules and cheaper labor). now tribe one is getting hungry and the tribal members are upset do to the lack of food. Tribe one will NEVER get tribe two to lay down their spears, infact if attempt they will die trying. tribe one has two choices, starve or evolve. Untill such time as they have evolved past tribe two, they will be hungry. Blaming tribe two for success is pointless and denies natural evolution, blaming tribe ones leaders will achieve noting, in fact it is a waste of energy that needs to be spent becoming more competetive with tribe two. Failure to evolve in a changinging environment leads to extinction.

 

[phragle]

" Plan ahead - when Noah built the ark it was not raining"!

An incredibly large part of this country did not do that, they sat on the beach in the sunshine drinking foofoo drinks with umbrella's in them, mortgaging a sunny tomorrow to drive escalades and live in mc mansions... it's not raining now..its a hurricane.

 

[Ratickle]

Paul, I understand your point and agree with it to a certain point. But the fact is the world has changed. Evolution if you call it that. Think of two tribes of cavemen competing for the same food source, one the US and tribe two the third world. Tribe one learned that they could throw rocks at small animals and hunt more efficiently, they could also throw stones at tribe two to defend their hunt. Tribe two got very hungry and developed spears to hunt and defend more efficiently(modern production with less rules and cheaper labor). now tribe one is getting hungry and the tribal members are upset do to the lack of food. Tribe one will NEVER get tribe two to lay down their spears, infact if attempt they will die trying. tribe one has two choices, starve or evolve. Untill such time as they have evolved past tribe two, they will be hungry. Blaming tribe two for success is pointless and denies natural evolution, blaming tribe ones leaders will achieve noting, in fact it is a waste of energy that needs to be spent becoming more competetive with tribe two. Failure to evolve in a changinging environment leads to extinction.

Your analogy is correct except for one thing.

Tribe one's leaders are to blame.

The only rules being enforced, are the ones being placed on tribe one by the leaders of tribe one. The changing environment is the direct result of the leaders of tribe one, and the sell-out by those leaders for thier own wealth, not the improvement of those they represent.

To call them leaders is a stretch as far as I'm concerned by the way. Elected officials is much more accurate.

If your argument is meant to say that it's too late to do anything about tribe two, I may tend to agree somewhat, but not completely.

Level the rules, see what happens.

 

[Ratickle]

And FYI, Tribe one's manufacturers did evolve. They sent the jobs and companies overseas to compete with tribe two by using tribe two's cheaper labor, and non-existent labor and pollution laws.

 

[THEJOKER]

http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=223433

 

[gerritm]

You and I had similar paths. After leaving the military I did a toolmaker jig & fixture apprenticeship with Chrysler and got my card in 1970. Stayed with the trade until 1979 when I finished my engineering degree and went to work for a defense contractor. Retired last year.
ed

Here is the key quote, "Finished my engineering degree". Education is what gets you ahead in this world, not the union or the government. You got the American Dream by working hard and doing it yourself.

I followed a different path. When I got out of high school, I went to work for the same company my Dad worked for in management and retired after 42 years. I worked in the QC dept and was non-union.The plant union workers demanded a new contract and went on strike and the company closed this plant. Put 700-800 workers on the un-employment line. Great new contract. I went to work for a plumber and served my 5 year apprenticeship, became a licensed plumber and bought my own business. The only time in my life I was ever laid off was 1 of the 2 years I worked in the plumbers union. I have no love for the unions. They have served their purpose and are an outdated un-needed idea.

By the way why do you think Chairman Maobama bailed out the auto industy and let the unions "buy" the majority share of the business? Because they are unsustainable entities without the government to protect them. Wait till card check passes.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

Was telling this story to a buddy today......He quickly responded that $25 an hour is $1,000 a week and in Ohio that is like making 100K a year anywhere else! 52K a year does seem like a lot of money X 2200 line workers + the salaries of 200 managers.

 

[phragle]

while no doubt the American auto industry lacks the ability to look past next week as far as anticipating consumer desires, the fact that fuel got expensive... what caused that?? speculative greed in the energy market that ran the price up artificualy...now that greed fueled commodity bubble has collapsed and fuel prices and dropped and stabilized.

For all the "it will never be like it was" battle cries out there, I say it should never have been like it was. we had an artificially inflated tech bubble, followed by an artificially inflated housing bubble, when that collapsed there was a short term energy bubble, it collapsed. what we are suffering isn't a recession or a depression but a long overdue correction.... what we are facing is reality.

 

[Ratickle]

I say it should never have been like it was. we had an artificially inflated tech bubble, followed by an artificially inflated housing bubble, when that collapsed there was a short term energy bubble, it collapsed. what we are suffering isn't a recession or a depression but a long overdue correction.... what we are facing is reality.

Your point being that every one of those bubbles were fueled by speculation financed by credit, absolutely.

But I don't see where that has changed or been corrected in the slightest. We have doubled the money supply. The result, almost everything we own, had in savings, or had in assets has been decreased by half.

Today, the FDIC is talking about borrowing money from banks, that are propped up by the Feds, to keep solvent because so many banks have gone bankrupt. ?????? Huh??????

 

[TCEd]

Here is the key quote, "Finished my engineering degree". Education is what gets you ahead in this world, not the union or the government. You got the American Dream by working hard and doing it yourself.

I followed a different path. When I got out of high school, I went to work for the same company my Dad worked for in management and retired after 42 years. I worked in the QC dept and was non-union.The plant union workers demanded a new contract and went on strike and the company closed this plant. Put 700-800 workers on the un-employment line. Great new contract. I went to work for a plumber and served my 5 year apprenticeship, became a licensed plumber and bought my own business. The only time in my life I was ever laid off was 1 of the 2 years I worked in the plumbers union. I have no love for the unions. They have served their purpose and are an outdated un-needed idea.

By the way why do you think Chairman Maobama bailed out the auto industy and let the unions "buy" the majority share of the business? Because they are unsustainable entities without the government to protect them. Wait till card check passes.

Yes, I did move up, got the American Dream. But a lot of people working in the plants, any plant, has a different American Dream. It may only be a newer 3 bedroom house in a nicer neighborhood or a two week vacation up-north ( a Michigan expression). Everybody can't be a college grad. and every job doesn't require a college grad.. Every plant worker doesn't own a manison or an Escalade or have multiple credit card run to the max..

By the way, my Dream collapsed like many others when the 401 became a 200.5 !
ed

 

[Ratickle]

By the way, my Dream collapsed like many others when the 401 became a 200.5 !
ed

So true......

 

[Shah Mat]

A side note on unions

I'm a union member.....been one for 10 years. I have good pay and great benefits and thank the union for that. But....I agree they are out-dated and I also agree with 80% hard workers and 20% do nothings. It amazes me!!!! I see co-workers working harder at getting out of work than it would be doing their job. The union protects these people! Then when it comes to a lay off there is no selection according to performance. They guy who has been here for 25 years and only actually worked 5 of those years still manages to have a job. The guy who has been here 5 years and has worked his butt off all 5 years gets the axe. This may not be what happens in auto world but it happens here.

True story that happened here at my location:

About a year ago there were three guys who stopped for lunch. They were driving two large line trucks, C8500 GMC Top Kicks. These trucks stick out like a zit on your nose. A 3rd level supervisor was driving by the restaurant and took note at our company trucks parked out front. He had about an hour of business to do south of this restaurant and afterward he was headed back north to his office. I guess he was surprised to see the line trucks still parked there. About two hours had passed since the first sighting. He got curious and researched what the work tour was for the line crew. I think it was 6:30-3 with a 1/2 for lunch, or 6:30 to 3:30 with a 1 hour lunch. Later that day he showed up at my location around 2:30. It's not unusual to have a 2nd or 3rd level show up unannounced. He waited around until the line crew showed up a few minutes later. He just shook hands, said hi to everyone, talked business, and acted like nothing was wrong. The three guys he was watching filled out their timesheets and left, saying goodbye to this guy at 3pm. He then went and checked their timesheets and saw they had reported they worked through the 1/2 hour lunch and.... AND worked two hours overtime, leaving 5pm!!!! A little further checking and apparently this had been going on for some time. They were fired a few days later. I was thinking good riddance and questioned why these guy's 1st level supervisor didn't get fired for allowing this to go on. Well...... yesterday one of the guys was walking though our yard. Come to find out the union got him his job back. AFTER A YEAR! WTF!!! The other two had the choice but had found suitable employment elsewhere.

 

[Ratickle]

That's what I'm talking about on the 20%. The union should be glad they were gone, that's what really protects their members from competition and downsizing. Instead, they have this us against them attitude which hurts every union member long term.

If that had been the third level manager, same company, where would he be today?????

 

[Shah Mat]

The union should be glad they were gone, that's what really protects their members from competition and downsizing. Instead, they have this us against them attitude which hurts every union member long term.

Unfortunately some of the union stewards are part of the 20%. So.... it's fights like this that gives these stewards another reason not to do their job, because they are doing "Union business".

 

[gerritm]

During my non-union QC job I watched a black union worker who held some kind of postion in the union, probably a steward, punch out a white non-union manager because of a dissagreement over how some material should be moved. There were no threats made by the manager. We were not allowed to move anything within the plant, we had to call a union guy to do anything. Sometimes you just forgot and did what you needed to do to get the job done. They fired the black guy, he claimed racial harassment/discrimination and after about a year, got his job back with full back pay. Eventually this type of union behavior and the fact that the plant was so outdated technologically, and the belief that they were owed something by the company led to the plant closing when the contract came up for renewal. I still work closely with the plumber's union in my job today and I have the utmost respect for the dedicated plumbers on these major construction jobs. They are highly skilled and deserve their pay.