On Race Course Towing

[rchevelle71]

i'll correct you, YOUR WALLET WILL BE GOING OUT THE WINDOW

OK,

you got me

[Dude! Sweet!]

toilet ring wax?

http://www.amazon.com/William-H-Harv.../dp/B00002N6R9

[Dude! Sweet!]

Wouldnt the coasties persuade you to let the salvor hook up though? its either that, or lose your boat and pay heavy environmental fines.

They didn't. Don't know why. Maybe because it was going quick or nobody was around, but they pumped him, put someone in the water to try to stick the entire 8' section of chine back on with wax and towed him in. I don't think they got charged anything either. But if they did, insurance covered it (poker run, not race).

[MarylandMark]

I was under the impression the Coast Guard would only tow if other means weren't available and don't compete with commercial interests?

[Dude! Sweet!]

Coast Guard and Los Angeles County Life Guards responded. The Life Guards actually did all the work, including towing.

[shifter]

For the dana point race there are 5 Port rescue boats (Popra volunteers) for the whole course. 2 one each end and one in the middle. That covers the racetrack very well. I am not sure how the sea tow or vessel assist works but I am taking this post and putting it in front of the bod to get true answers.

pat W

[BradH]

Wouldnt the coasties persuade you to let the salvor hook up though? its either that, or lose your boat and pay heavy environmental fines.

Yes they will and they should, but only after an agreement for payment has been reached with the salving company. This can be done over the radio.

The cost of losing the boat and paying the fines should be considered when determining the price of the job. Additionally, the CG will not dangle their pump above your head and mock you with their buoyancy bags and force you to turn to a salvor, to whom you now owe tens of thousands of dollars.

Salvage gets a bad name from many situations like this. If you own a boat, take the time to learn about the industry and it's practices. The original intention of salvage laws is to provide an incentive to assist ships in need on the high seas, with the major role of saving lives.

[shifter]

This is what I have so far. We will work on Question 4.

1) Please correct my understanding if I'm mistaken about any of the above.

2) I was talking to a repo guy recently who told me he could be charged with kidnapping if he were to drive off with someone's car or boat while there were people on it. Conversely, he told me that when he repos boats on the water, he'll get on the boat and tell the owner that he doesn't want to be taken anywhere. If the owner moves the boat, the repo guy claimed he can press charges for kidnapping. BS or not? If not, how does Sea Tow get around this issue? Do not catch the rope, do not put the line on a cleat until you have an agreement with the assist vessel, if you are coherent.
3) Do orgs generally offer towing for competitors other as part of the event participation (i.e. an authorized tow boat that doesn't claim salvage rights)? Yes

4) If the race course is being held under permit, I'm assuming the race course is closed to non-race traffic. I would think that Sea Tow could be considered to be an unautorized tresspass onto the race course. How does this work? Good question
5) If I'm under contract with Vessel Assist with unlimited towing, I'd assume that unless my contract excludes towing during racing events, I could still just refuse a tow from Sea Tow and call Vessel Assist. Is this correct? yes
I really appreciate any input or insight. I'm making some decisions right now about the cost/benefit of racing this season and preparing to race as well. I want to make sure I'm making educated decisions and also understand what I'm dealing with once out on course. The fact is that Sea Tow has always been good to POPRA, I have never heard of a “Bad experience” out on the west coast. 2 years ago Sea tow dragged my boat in six miles after I lost a coil on the way to Catalina in the Rum Run for no charge.

From the prez.

pat W

[Sean H]

Remember, in alot of racing incidents, you are no longer with your boat. You are in the water or on a rescue boat or whatever.

The tow guys know what an upside down supercat is worth (with no crew on board to decline assistance). Most are pretty fair about it (3-5k to flip it back over, tow it back and pump it out). Others are the ones you hear stories about.

[shifter]

I talked to Troy about it this morning. We already have Seatow as a sponsor. If Vessel Assist is willing to sponsor also then we should work out a deal to protect the racers during the race weekend. It is hard enough to deal with the accident damage and subsiquent repair bills.

I have watched a lot of drama over the years with accidents and it is really unprofessional and unorganized.

I feel we should have a pre determined amount for recovery sorted out or they are not allowed to participate in the event. That way there is no stress about the accident post race.

Obviously they (ST and VA) want people to sign up and become a member and that is their payoff. Most people that have a raceboat have pleasure craft as well and it is all covered if you are a member.

I have the contact info for Seatow. I do not know Vessel Assist so maybe Sean can help. Hint Hint.

I need a list of questions so we can sit down and hammer out a deal with them and fix this problem.

pat W

[Dude! Sweet!]

Thanks Pat. I really appreciate the extra effort here. I'll go through my Vessel Assist paperwork and see what I can scare up and then make some calls. I know it's through BoatUS/WestMarine but the only guys I've ever talked to live were on the tow boat and the tow truck (they have trailering assistance too).

[skaterdave]

Remember, in alot of racing incidents, you are no longer with your boat. You are in the water or on a rescue boat or whatever.

The tow guys know what an upside down supercat is worth (with no crew on board to decline assistance). Most are pretty fair about it (3-5k to flip it back over, tow it back and pump it out). Others are the ones you hear stories about.

sean you really think that 3-5k is reasonable?

i've watched those guys "upright" a boat and it's basically about a 5-10 min deal if that. and as for pumping the boat out, whats a honda gas engine use maybe 1/2 gallon of gas.

and you already pointed out the obvious, which is if your dead in the water, especially if your boats taking on water, they got you by the b#lls.

if pat and Popra are going to have a deal in place before hand great.

quick story time: at a race 2 yrs ago sea tow or one of the other tow boat guys was there offering his services for members. for non-members they would tow you back in only to the first bridge (only about 1/4 back to the crane) and the rest would be billable. you could also sign up for service but it didn't go into affect until after the race. @#$@#$??? and as always "salvage" was extra.

as a cat boat owner, the cats seem to have a much greater chance of going over, so almost any towing cost would be a salvage and very costly. for a p-class racer this is quite a burden. one which i think should addressed by the race promoter, in a effort to help control costs and bring in new racers. i never really thought about getting hurt, but it was always in the back of my mind about the costs if something happened.

[Ratickle]

Cpuple things I know, few things I'm learning.

If you're in good shape, don't leave your boat. The Coast Guard, rescue boat/divers, everyone will be trying to get you to leave your boat, don't. Unless your coverage with the tow company is exceptional, you will be charged a salvage fee. And the 3000 to 5000 figure is correct as a minimum from everything I know. Mobilemercman has stayed in the boat before, he can fill you in on the pressure to leave it.

Dean is a very good resource as to what OPA does with tows. I have not heard one horror story with their org.

Who does SBI use? They seem to generate the most horror stories. I have no idea why. Is it because other tow companies are allowed in the area? Or what?

[Sean H]

Who does SBI use? They seem to generate the most horror stories. I have no idea why. Is it because other tow companies are allowed in the area? Or what?

I think it is more of a Florida thing; more of them know what they can or can't get away with, plus there is just more of them to begin with.

As far as the rate goes, I don't know if that is to far off, it is never a 5 or 10 minute deal, they are risking their boat and equipment as well as their employees safety trying to save those upside down turds. I think it was nearly 4 hours to get the boat back to the crane in Sarasota, you cant tow a cat full of water very fast. (luckily on that one a volunteer boat helped out and it only cost some new docklines that got damaged/lost in the process of the tow). I don't know how long KW took a couple years ago, it wasn't quick, and those guys work hard to save Guy's boat. They have a rate they go by, so much a foot and per hour, they will tell you what it is before the race so it's not like they are just making numbers up as they go.

I am in no way saying that when they take the boat hostage and demand more money is right, but if they do what they say and charge accordingly to a standard rate, I don't see the issue.

I also agree, the promoters need to do more to protect the racers, but I sat in the Bimini meeting last year. The tow guys were offering free tow if you signed up for the membership, but they weren't cutting any deals on any recoverys (I dont think there was any either). Let's face it, that is where they make their money, not towing back in people who run out of gas.

[shifter]

One of the problems we have is getting the complete fleet regestered for every race of the season. That way you have a guaranteed amount of $ to sort out this kind of thing ahead of time.

NHRA has a safety safari and I think the club needs athe same kind of thing.

There should be benefits for full time racers. It is not difficult to put $ aside for a pump and $ for accidents/crane/boats incidentals etc. (sort of insurance) for every race. The deal should be in place before the race.

To do that the racer needs to put in up front $ for the season. and at the end of the season they get the all the $ back if everything went well during the season.

Just some ideas,

pat W

[skaterdave]

As far as the rate goes, I don't know if that is to far off, it is never a 5 or 10 minute deal, they are risking their boat and equipment as well as their employees safety trying to save those upside down turds..

sean i was referring to the time actually spent "righting" the boat.

2 examples: aquamania wa towed in upside down and barrel-rolled in the annex in KW, took maybe 3 tries = 20 mins.

last yr in KW one of the catlites came in and all they did was hook up to the front and pull it foward, and it righted itself.

just think for racers like Guy, it would have been nice if the promoter had a recovery plan upfront. honestly, i give him alot of credit for sticking with racing and supporting the offshore racing only to have the orgs not really care about the racers.

[phragle]

Cpuple things I know, few things I'm learning.

If you're in good shape, don't leave your boat.

As a race medic, I disagree on this part. Your racing, you crash, the adrenalin is pumping. You are not thinking straight. You could have neck/spinal injuries, internal injuries etc. I have personaly seen people racing offroad crash, and try and continue not realizing they had a broken arm or leg. I have seen it multiple times. I witnessed a perfectly healthy 20 year old guy crash, get up say he was ok and 10 minutes later he was dead. you don't glass dead back together. you don't pickle dead and fix it next week. You don't salvage dead. You are worth more than your boat. Regardless of the org you are racing with, there should be a plan in place for taking care of boats. If there is not, you as racers need to get together and demand it. Sorry if I sound like i am wigging about this, but I do not get paid to work races, I sit out there bobbing around baking in the sun in a center console on my own time and on my own dime to keep you safe. If you wipe out, let the org and your crew handle the boat, let me take care of you. I will not charge you for looking at you either (though t-shirts and beers are always accepted AFTER the race) Be safe, be smart. I will nw climb off my soap box and resume my regular jackazzery.

[Dude! Sweet!]

As a race medic, I disagree on this part. Your racing, you crash, the adrenalin is pumping. You are not thinking straight. You could have neck/spinal injuries, internal injuries etc. I have personaly seen people racing offroad crash, and try and continue not realizing they had a broken arm or leg. I have seen it multiple times. I witnessed a perfectly healthy 20 year old guy crash, get up say he was ok and 10 minutes later he was dead. you don't glass dead back together. you don't pickle dead and fix it next week. You don't salvage dead. You are worth more than your boat. Regardless of the org you are racing with, there should be a plan in place for taking care of boats. If there is not, you as racers need to get together and demand it. Sorry if I sound like i am wigging about this, but I do not get paid to work races, I sit out there bobbing around baking in the sun in a center console on my own time and on my own dime to keep you safe. If you wipe out, let the org and your crew handle the boat, let me take care of you. I will not charge you for looking at you either (though t-shirts and beers are always accepted AFTER the race) Be safe, be smart. I will nw climb off my soap box and resume my regular jackazzery.

Rob, I agree with your point about having the org get a plan together, but if the tow issue is a real issue, would it be much trouble to do the check on the crashed boat? Assuming no major mechanical or flotation issues of course...

[phragle]

I'm not going to tell you what to do.. If it was me... My crew can deal with the boat. Besides, when the boat gets to the crane, there will probably be gas mixed with all the water in the boat,plus a lot of the water will have to be bailed out before the crane can pick it up. Having done that happy job for Dean, you really want somebody else to do it........

This shuld illustrate my point..different sport, my old rescue team.. guy crashes. not that hard..shakes out the cobwebs and takes off haulin butt. He realized he was sore..he didn't realize he had a BROKEN PELVIS.

[Big Time]

Who does SBI use? They seem to generate the most horror stories. I have no idea why. Is it because other tow companies are allowed in the area? Or what?

Does anyone know what happened to baby Hard Rock when it went over at the Worlds? Where they charged salvage or just for the tow?