The Last Truck documentary on HBO........

[JupiterSunsation]

I don't consider myself "pro-union" but have a new respect for the union workers that got let go last Dec 23, 2008 in GM's Dayton, Ohio plant.
2400 workers got canned when the plant closed, in all over 10,000 workers were effected when the plant closed (vendors, subcontractors etc).

Many of these people were very tough, seasoned looking people and they were all crying. Many of them have no alternatives or job skills. Most were linemen/women in their 40's-50's with a high school diploma and were making $25 an hour doing physical labor. They asked one guy about computer skills and he had none and didn't even own a computer but had community college books in his car. Too bad you will probably need to sign up online......

The aspect I overlooked in the past is that the union bonds all these uneducated laborers together. These people are essentially prisoners with paychecks. They work the line and collect their checks. They probably can't look out for themselves since they have been told what to do for 15+ years and it was really only one thing/ build trucks on the line. They have no expectations outside what the union tells/does for them.

It was a sad outlook on Americans, I am sure there are millions like them out there. In my area it is shocking to hear of a kid that didn't finish high school and unusual if a kid doesn't atleast attend college for a few semesters. I have 3 sisters and my wife has one, all 6 kids (total) graduated from 4 year universities and 2 have advanced degrees. 5 of the 6 of us married people that also graduated from universities. It is just expected in our area....something I really took for granted.

Watch the movie on HBO and you may realize American definitely still needs unions to watch out for a large sector of laborers. One quote was that "my grandson won't have it as good as me at the rate we are going".....sad but true for a lot of Americans.

[insanity]

Agreed. Haven't been able to catch the whole thing but watched about the last half of it. It definitely shows the other side of the coin, and gives insight into these peoples lives.

[Ratickle]

This is my opinion, take it as such......

The issue is not with 80% of the union employees. The issue is with the union management and the 20% of the workers who get to keep their jobs with pizz poor output and quality.

SUre they've done some things to improve lately, but what about the previous years and years when it was only one sided on the union side? It was just as bad that way as the old days when it was all company and nothing for the workers.

But, they ultimate irony, the politicians the unions put in office, are the politicians who sold them out.

Here is an estimate of almost a million jobs lost to China by 2010 if Clinton's plan passed, back in 2000.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entr...s_chinastates/

Estimated trade deficit with China in the study, $48 billion by 2010.

Actual 2008 China trade deficit, $268,039,800,000.

Heck, it was $26 billion in July alone this year.....

http://tradeandtaxes.blogspot.com/20...na-climbs.html

[Ratickle]

Here is from a 2008 study. 2.3 million jobs lost.


Unbalanced U.S. trade with China since 2001 has had a devastating effect on U.S. workers. Between 2001 and 2007, 2.3 million jobs were lost or displaced, including 366,000 in 2007 alone (Scott 2008). These jobs were displaced by the growth of the U.S. trade deficit with China, which increased from $84 billion in 2001 to $262 billion in 2007

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hots_20080730/

[TCEd]

Unless you tried it I have a hard time with the people that rip on car plant workers.
ed

[fund razor]

Unless you tried it I have a hard time with the people that rip on car plant workers.
ed

I honestly don't think that ripping on car plant workers was anyone's intent in the above posts.

[Ratickle]

Unless you tried it I have a hard time with the people that rip on car plant workers.
ed

As I said, only the 20% they let take control through the union towards the beginning of the demise. My Dad was a steel worker his entire life. Same thing happened there, same thing happened to the steel industry in this country.

[JupiterSunsation]

Rat

Watch the show if you get a chance....you will see these people need union representation. They are hard workers, they know their job well and in fact loved their job and now are having somewhat of an identity crisis as well as being unemployed.

This was only 2400 jobs at GM, 10,000 total in the area.....now multiply this over the millions of people out of work. GM is on the hook for 4 workers retirement/health care for every ONE worker still working. That is why the costs are $73 an hour for each current employee vs. $35 for every Toyota/Honda employee. This is a skewed number since those companies don't have a longtime foothold in the US plants and don't have the same amount of former workers-retirees and/or benefit packages.

[rschap1]

I worked for over 13 years as a UAW toolmaker. I do not know how much I agree with sympathy for the workers as they are herded to a production line. There are lots of angles that could be shown, but after seeing it from the inside, I really feel that is a stretch. Would any of these people be better off had they not gotten their years of great wages for their labor. Many I saw pizzed away their entire lifetime's wages and did not know what to do after living that life their whole career. I had a real hard time being sad for them. I worked all the OT I could, saved, paid my home off, and look back saying I am glad I did when they announced our work was moving out of the country. After that I took my toolmaking skills, gained some new ones, and am now a CNC programmer. I now drive a 60 mile each way commute, but I expanded my abilities and do what I have to do stay current and employable. Yep, I feel for those that can't do the same after they loose their jobs, but I could have sat back and cried the same as many of my former co-workers did, and still do 6 years later. Now I say that I got a head start on the rest of Michigan.

BTW, I have not sen the mentioned program. And this is of course my 2 cents from what I witnessed.

[JupiterSunsation]

I worked for over 13 years as a UAW toolmaker. I do not know how much I agree with sympathy for the workers as they are herded to a production line. There are lots of angles that could be shown, but after seeing it from the inside, I really feel that is a stretch. Would any of these people be better off had they not gotten their years of great wages for their labor. Many I saw pizzed away their entire lifetime's wages and did not know what to do after living that life their whole career. I had a real hard time being sad for them. I worked all the OT I could, saved, paid my home off, and look back saying I am glad I did when they announced our work was moving out of the country. After that I took my toolmaking skills, gained some new ones, and am now a CNC programmer. I now drive a 60 mile each way commute, but I expanded my abilities and do what I have to do stay current and employable. Yep, I feel for those that can't do the same after they loose their jobs, but I could have sat back and cried the same as many of my former co-workers did, and still do 6 years later. Now I say that I got a head start on the rest of Michigan.

BTW, I have not sen the mentioned program. And this is of course my 2 cents from what I witnessed.

I could see that side of it for sure. They interviewed one guy who was making $4.25 an hour bagging groceries before the UAW job started him at $10 and that was 15 years ago. He didn't really pick up any transferable skills like you did and now is looking back at the last 15 years and the level of living he has achieved and can't replicate the wages anytime soon.

[gerritm]

Maybe it's the old chicken and egg syndrome. What caused what? Did the unions cause the unemployment by getting these basically unskilled workers the $25 dollars per hour or is it the fault of managment? Unions costs and benefits, like all liberal agendas are unsustainable. They grow and grow until something gives. It seems to me that the unions have caused most of their own problems.

[Ratickle]

Rat

Watch the show if you get a chance....you will see these people need union representation. They are hard workers, they know their job well and in fact loved their job and now are having somewhat of an identity crisis as well as being unemployed.

This was only 2400 jobs at GM, 10,000 total in the area.....now multiply this over the millions of people out of work. GM is on the hook for 4 workers retirement/health care for every ONE worker still working. That is why the costs are $73 an hour for each current employee vs. $35 for every Toyota/Honda employee. This is a skewed number since those companies don't have a longtime foothold in the US plants and don't have the same amount of former workers-retirees and/or benefit packages.

I understand that. But, if the socialist government would have allowed the company to go bankrupt Under The Laws Of The United States, the retirement/health care issue would have been gone/done/moot. Instead, they still have it all and still can't compete.

I point blank believe in local unions at companies. If every plant had their own union, with only the plants who did the exact same work in that union, I'd have no issue. As long as they were the only ones allowed to deal with management and vote. Been there, done that, nice work environment.

But, back to the point I harp and harp on. The government is who screwed every single American out of their jobs. By allowing anyone, domestic or foreign, to not have to meet the same requirements by moving any facility out of the country as a facility in the country, they caused this. Period, end of story. ANd, no matter who was on who's side or wanted the deals, it was Carter and Clinton who did both with their signatures. The union leadership put them in those positions along with those who don't want to work.

But, it did make a communist country more friendly. I just want to puke....

[Ratickle]

Maybe it's the old chicken and egg syndrome. What caused what? Did the unions cause the unemployment by getting these basically unskilled workers the $25 dollars per hour or is it the fault of managment? Unions costs and benefits, like all liberal agendas are unsustainable. They grow and grow until something gives. It seems to me that the unions have caused most of their own problems.

Yes and no. The union leadership, in bed with government crooks, have done it. The union workers were fed a line of BS about who to elect in both positions.

[TCEd]

I honestly don't think that ripping on car plant workers was anyone's intent in the above posts.

Yes, you're correct. I've aquired a thin skin over the years regarding outsiders views of autoworkers, their benefits and car plants.
ed

[TCEd]

I worked for over 13 years as a UAW toolmaker. I do not know how much I agree with sympathy for the workers as they are herded to a production line. There are lots of angles that could be shown, but after seeing it from the inside, I really feel that is a stretch. Would any of these people be better off had they not gotten their years of great wages for their labor. Many I saw pizzed away their entire lifetime's wages and did not know what to do after living that life their whole career. I had a real hard time being sad for them. I worked all the OT I could, saved, paid my home off, and look back saying I am glad I did when they announced our work was moving out of the country. After that I took my toolmaking skills, gained some new ones, and am now a CNC programmer. I now drive a 60 mile each way commute, but I expanded my abilities and do what I have to do stay current and employable. Yep, I feel for those that can't do the same after they loose their jobs, but I could have sat back and cried the same as many of my former co-workers did, and still do 6 years later. Now I say that I got a head start on the rest of Michigan.

BTW, I have not sen the mentioned program. And this is of course my 2 cents from what I witnessed.

You and I had similar paths. After leaving the military I did a toolmaker jig & fixture apprenticeship with Chrysler and got my card in 1970. Stayed with the trade until 1979 when I finished my engineering degree and went to work for a defense contractor. Retired last year.
ed

[Ratickle]

And, we've done absolutely nothing to fix the root cause. Why, politicians accept bribes in the form of donations, gifts, and perks.


Economic News Release Employment Situation Summary
Transmission of material in this release is embargoed USDL-09-1067
until 8:30 a.m. (EDT) September 4, 2009

Technical information:
Household data: (202) 691-6378 CPSinfo@bls.gov www.bls.gov/cps
Establishment data: (202) 691-6555 CESinfo@bls.gov www.bls.gov/ces

Media contact: (202) 691-5902 PressOffice@bls.gov


THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION -- AUGUST 2009


Nonfarm payroll employment continued to decline in August (-216,000),
and the unemployment rate rose to 9.7 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor
Statistics reported today. Although job losses continued in many of the
major industry sectors in August, the declines have moderated in recent
months.


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

[JupiterSunsation]

Maybe it's the old chicken and egg syndrome. What caused what? Did the unions cause the unemployment by getting these basically unskilled workers the $25 dollars per hour or is it the fault of managment? Unions costs and benefits, like all liberal agendas are unsustainable. They grow and grow until something gives. It seems to me that the unions have caused most of their own problems.

Both......The movie ends with a typical UAW worker vs. management arguement. Last day factory closed early due to parts shortage. Some type of hinges ran out......management had 350 which to them means 350 trucks except each truck takes two resulting in 175 trucks being made that day.

The workers had pride in the product but the model of 4 retirees draining benefits off the backs of 1 worker is unsustainable in todays market. If GM was still producing 50% of the nation's cars then maybe it would be doable but not when GM is building less than 10% of nation's cars.

TCed- After watching this show I have a new respect for autoworkers from all brands. I believe in the products GM makes (7 new GM trucks in the past 20 years, still own 4 including an 09 Yukon). Every one with the exception went well over 100K miles with very minor repairs (waterpumps, brakes, batteries, a/c switches) and nothing major motor/tranny etc.

Autoworkers have tough jobs but it is usually their only option in the towns they live in. Some have come from past generations of autoworkers and don't know anything else. Unfortunately the industry didn't evolve with time so it became a dinosaur soon to be extinct. Management is just as much to blame with overpaid CEO's etc. but for the worker to expect the company to be there solely to support a community is very short sighted and unrealistic especially when they are producing mid level SUV's in the midst of a recession.

[Ratickle]

Management is just as much to blame with overpaid CEO's etc. but for the worker to expect the company to be there solely to support a community is very short sighted and unrealistic especially when they are producing mid level SUV's in the midst of a recession.

However, the mid-level SUV's are what was selling. If you look at the business plan for the American manufacturers, if it weren't for the cars they were forced to build by our government to meet COLA standards, they would have been extremely profitable. Instead, they sold every small car at a loss to compete with imports Who Did Not Have The Overhead Mandated By Our Governments Laws.

There were several years where every penny of profit for Ford and GM came from the pickup/suv lines. Every penny. But, they were forced to make high mileage crap by the government so all profits were eaten.

[THEJOKER]

I saw that show and it was sad. However no job is guaranteed forever and you have to be able to make changes when the time comes. Less time spent in that hole in the wall bar and more time spent planning for the future would be a good plan. It does suck that our government has sold us out to China and other countries.

[JupiterSunsation]

However, the mid-level SUV's are what was selling. If you look at the business plan for the American manufacturers, if it weren't for the cars they were forced to build by our government to meet COLA standards, they would have been extremely profitable. Instead, they sold every small car at a loss to compete with imports Who Did Not Have The Overhead Mandated By Our Governments Laws.

There were several years where every penny of profit for Ford and GM came from the pickup/suv lines. Every penny. But, they were forced to make high mileage crap by the government so all profits were eaten.

Rat you are off a little there in your reasoning......

They built what sold and at that time it was SUV's. When fuel got expensive and people had less discretionary income then the SUV fad was over.

The small car market was going to be the future whether the govt. suggested it or not. Look at the world, we were the only one's building SUV's/trucks/minivans! If the domestic 3 were allowed to produce only what was popular then they would be in tougher shape than they are now! The high mileage crap is what they should be making to be competitive and this isn't the first time the Big 3 missed that point. History is repeating itself from the early 70's when Honda/Toyota emerged and Detroit ignored them and kept building LTD's, Impalas and other boats!

Americans have just now realized their overconsumption issues and as the baby boomer's retire their past spending sprees are over so if you have relied on this for the past 30 years you need to adjust your business model........