lubrication vs heat, gears and speed

[Bajaholic]

This weekend while we were visiting Desert Storm, I had the opportunity to speak with John P owner of the Bravo Shop and, Greg(?)the owner of NEO synthetic oil.

The conversation centered around gear wear, caused by heat. What I guess I knew but didnt really realize is the heat by building up from the speed of the drive begins to wear the gears and will eventually self destruct. Also causing more drag on the drive when it is hot.

Which brought us to the new synthetic oils... They are designed to keep the gears cooler by using more lubrication between the gears due to it's viscosity. This technology is designed for gear boxes in racing cars including Formula One...

In other words, More lubrication, better wear, less heat and common sence tells me now less drag, which could lead (they do claim it) better speed. If this is the case, it would be the cheepest way to go faster in all of boating?

Personally I found the conversation interesting, It amazes me, just how such a simple thing could effect so many parts and costs (lowering costs of replacement of gears,drives etc) in the long run.

[Wet1]

I've been reading comments about Neo over on Bob Is The Oil Guy for a long time, I dont recall ever seeing any proof their oils are anything special, other than being highly over priced.

[John P]

U must be right, thats why F1 racing uses it in all the rear ends and transmission year after year cause it over priced.

[endeavor1]

I've been reading comments about Neo over on Bob Is The Oil Guy for a long time, I dont recall ever seeing any proof their oils are anything special, other than being highly over priced.

Yea, thats it completely.... I wish i had your intellect. NEO seems to be working much better than anything else I've used. I guess i ll really see it once my temp guages are in and i can watch NEO vs Merc oil behind a 14k lb boat running wtfo.

[offshoreexcursion]

IMO it might help but will not replace the need for larger gears like the B-Max upper, SCX, NXT, #6, M8, Indy, Arneson etc! Magic "neo" oil is not going to keep ANY bravo gears alive that are overpowered. Yes it might help and would love to see some long term testing, including how many hours were on the gears before they broke. I am not looking for "well it lasted me years on my boat". years for some might only be 15 or 20 hours, plus how often was it changed, how much Hp, did you switch the drives side to side to run on the other side of the gears, etc.

All these "bravo" magic fixes are like a payment plan on drives, but when your done you still have a junk bravo!

John (bravo shop) what you, or someone, needs to do is start a rent to own program. Us boaters are addicted to our boats just like our "brothers" in the south are with Huge rims on thier "donks"! I see "rent a tire" shops all over the south and near large cities and they are always slammed. They will pay for rims before they pay rent, just like us boaters! So if someone would just start financing drives they would be rich! If only I had that kind of cash I would do it in a heart beat!

[John P]

I know its hard to believe that a oil can make these gears live but it will. It has been tested on fleets that were getting 300-400 hrs on a gear set and after switching over to our oil are now getting 3000 hrs on a gear set.

If the oil in you trucks rear axle did not keep the gears from touching how noisy would it be and how long do you think your ring and pinion would last? Same applies to your out drive it needs a better oil then what is on the market do to the fact it is always under a load.
I'm not bashing anyone Else's oil as they have their place but a out drive that has large hp in front of it needs a better oil.

I have been tractor pulling for 30+ years and we have found that oil out of a parts store is not good enough for a 2500 hp Hemi, but will work very well in a 1000hp blown small block. So I guess I'm tell you that you need a high performance oil for you high performance boat.
As far as a rent to own I will leave that up to you. LOL, I have friends with rent to own stores and I don't want anything to do with it.

[MILD THUNDER]

Im curious about this subject. Being in the trucking business, probably 90% or more of the over the road trucks, use fleet brand oil in their rear axles and transmissions. How is it that a truck, with engines that make 1400-2000FT lbs of torque, pulling 80,000lb+ loads across the country, up mountain grades, etc, can go 1,000,000 miles on a rear axle using basic fleet lube? As for constant load, most class 8 trucks on the road are loaded to the max, and to maintain 65mph on the freeway for hundreds and hundreds of miles at a time, are always under boost/high torque. They arent coasting along like a car.

I think it more or less comes from the fact the rear axles transmissions are designed to handle that kind of power and torque, and thats what makes them live a long life. Where say a bravo, will live a long time with the power put into it, that it was designed for. I have a hard time believing a certain oil formula will make them last 10x longer in a overpowered application.

Reminds me of the engine oil threads. Some guy will chime in that he will only run 12 dollar a quart racing oil in his 260HP 350 merc, because its the best. Im a firm believer that nothing keeps the engine lubricated better than FRESH oil, regardless of the label. Magic Sauce will not protect from fuel dilution, moisture, incorrect engine parts/tolerances, etc.

If the NEO oil really does help the bravo's live longer, then that is just awesome. Im sure John P has much more experiance with bravo's than most here. I know some guys who have snapped vertical shafts and twisted propshafts on bravo's. I dont know how oil will prevent that from happening though. Most guys around here boat in rough water. I think i'd rather run 750HP thru a bravo on a small lake, then 600HP thru a bravo on a rough lake like lake michigan, where the drive is constantly being loaded and unloaded, esp in a heavy boat. My buddy has a 2006 42FT Fountain with stock 525's and XR's. That boat eats a drive annually. Maybe he should look into the NEO oil. Worth a shot.

[John P]

As far as over the road trucks are concerned the ring and pinion are bigger to handle the load it was made for, but believe me they do wear out and break. I built Rear ends and transmissions for over the road trucks for years and have see it all.

You are correct Bravo Shop oil will not keep a shaft from breaking but it will help extend your gear life. But on the other hand there are better shafts to put in your Bravo that will take more torque.
Would you use a stock connecting rod in your blown 850 or are you going with aftermarket? Same applies to your Bravo 1 outdrive, you guys well rob a bank to get your horse power you want but will not spend a dime extra on good shafts and oil to make your drive live longer. Shafts break from shock load and from heat caused by lack of a quality lube or clearances not correct. We make high performance clutch shafts,vertical shafts and prop shafts for Bravos along with shims to shim ALL the bearings in the drive.
Everyone thinks they can rebuilt a Bravo but there is more to it then you think if you want it to hold up to big power.
Mild Thunder your buddy would be way ahead by using Bravo Shop oil in his XR.

[MILD THUNDER]

I agree, some guys will drop 30-40k building a nice set of engines, and the drive is a afterthought. My point about the over the road trucks, was that if say the ring and pinion only lasted 100k miles, its time to change to a stronger assembly. I do hear ya on setting the drive up properly being important. When my SSM IV's break, I hear setting them up properly is very time consuming and critical. Something I wouldnt want to try myself for the first time!

My SSM drives have 155 hours on them, behind 600-700HP motors in a 38FT. So far so good, no metal on plugs at oil changes. Another friend has 14 seasons on his SSM's, nothing other than oil changes, 39FT cat with 650's.

John, have you ever rebuilt any speedmaster drives?

[John P]

No, can you get the parts?

[MILD THUNDER]

No, can you get the parts?

Parts are still available. They started making the gearsets again too.

[07DominatorSS]

I've been reading comments about Neo over on Bob Is The Oil Guy for a long time, I dont recall ever seeing any proof their oils are anything special, other than being highly over priced.

I can't agree anymore. I've asked for data sheets or even some comparison charts, and the answer I was given was it takes time to get those. Well, supposedly they've been around since, I believe, 1986, so, how much longer should we wait?

[John P]

Really, we have only been working on this oil for a year so how does that go back to 1986? You most know more then me on this come clean and tell the world how that is. If you think you can do this in less time be my guest. It kills me listening to you guys that know so much about what I'm doing!
Have a great Memorial day weekend everyone!!

[offshoreexcursion]

I see where you are coming from John and I feel for you. It must be fusterating when you are just trying to make boating better for everyone. IF I was a bravo guy I would actually try your oil. I do believe that good oil helps. I just don't believe that any oil will make a overpowered bravo hold up for what I want to put it through, and not leave me stranded in the middle of lake michigan!

Anyone who knows they are sticking with bravos have no good reason not to try your oil. Good luck and keep us updated on results, even if we keep giving you a hard time about it!!! LOL!

[endeavor1]

Really, we have only been working on this oil for a year so how does that go back to 1986? You most know more then me on this come clean and tell the world how that is. If you think you can do this in less time be my guest. It kills me listening to you guys that know so much about what I'm doing! !!

07 Dominator just to be clear, this is aimed at you and Wet 1. Neo may have been around since 86 but the packaging and makeup of this oil is blended according to the Bravo Shops specs. Quit being c0ck suckers about it and read what is being posted. Again, its helping out my drives by lowering temps and has better lubricity.

Thanks for understanding and keeping this thread interesting.

[John P]

Chris take it easy on them everyone has the right to their opinion whether it is right or not. But I did find your story on changing your second drive oil very interesting maybe you should share it. I also received a call today from a customer in Texas and he told me how after installing the oil in his Volvo drive it shifts better and spins easier.

[endeavor1]

Chris take it easy on them everyone has the right to their opinion whether it is right or not. But I did find your story on changing your second drive oil very interesting maybe you should share it. I also received a call today from a customer in Texas and he told me how after installing the oil in his Volvo drive it shifts better and spins easier.

Your right and I did get a little mouthy so for that i will formally apologize. I will post 2morrow, gotta get some sleep. Busy weekend at the lake trying to keep up with some BT that has 850 chiefs in it......

[07DominatorSS]

Chris take it easy on them everyone has the right to their opinion whether it is right or not. But I did find your story on changing your second drive oil very interesting maybe you should share it. I also received a call today from a customer in Texas and he told me how after installing the oil in his Volvo drive it shifts better and spins easier.

Its should!!! I'm sure he's comparing his petroleum product that he previously used, to the new synthetic. Of course its gonna be better, but once again, where is any data on these products? I'm not saying they aren't a good product, but would love to see some data to support the theory and justify the cost.

[John P]

Its should!!! I'm sure he's comparing his petroleum product that he previously used, to the new synthetic. Of course its gonna be better, but once again, where is any data on these products? I'm not saying they aren't a good product, but would love to see some data to support the theory and justify the cost.

We just received the testing info so if you are at LOTO is weekend stop by my booth at Dog Days after the Support the Troops Poker Run and have a look.

[07DominatorSS]

Shoot me PM with it.