Boats.com story on "Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?"

[Ratickle]

Whether it's monetary, or physical support, I'd love to do what I can to extend that "love" for offshore racing.

Maybe in a boat?????

[Mike A.]

Guys,

Intriguing stuff. But my initial point, "It is what it is and always will be what it is" stands, at least for me. Both Rich and Mike have seen the sport through its "peak" days. And even at its zenith, it was ... fringe. Either one of you care to disagree?

Now, that doesn't mean it can't find an audience, and we have cable television to thank for that. My god, I watched some nut job wrestle a huge python in a guano-filled cave the other day, and damn I was entertained. If you can package some kook rolling around in bat **** with a scary-big snake, you can package anything.

Just don't expect it to outdraw "American Idol" or "I Love New York" or "Flavor of Love."

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"

Having reread this thread, Mike, I have to say this: I think it's a mistake to point fingers at the "splinter group" for the LLC's demise. Granted, I think splinter groups are a mistake as they invariably become what they once despised. But if that many people were disenchanted ... like you said, people in business make mistakes. But as I'm sure you'll agree, a big part of business is managing personal relationships. If that many people went south on the LLC, maybe the LLC had a least some responsibility for their flight. Don't want to go tit for tat, but I think there's a degree of responsibility on the part of the LLC, in terms of creating the climate for that group to exist, that you're not owning.

On another note ...

At the time GM came on as a sponsor, I asked you during your Key West press conference how you thought that would fly with Mercury Racing. Seemed like an obvious question to me, but my colleagues in the press inexplicably lost their voices. You said, "How did I know YOU would ask that question?" And everyone in the room laughed.

It was a good moment.

But with Fountain and Mercury Racing gone as sponsors, for whatever reason (and likely we'll never agree on why and that's OK) the LLC was in deep trouble, and I'm not talking financially. (Those sponsorships, though decent for offshore racing, couldn't even come close to supporting a race-sanctioning business.) Perception and opinion were not working in the LLC's favor. Seems to me things went terminally south from there.

You always said I treated you fairly and respectfully. I appreciated that. Felt the same way. Just offering my take, from the outside. You were on the inside, and I respect that as well.

Matt,

From the inside let me tell that by 2003 Offshore Racing, as produced by the LLC, was not a fringe sport. We had solid TV ratings on a network, SPEED, which had been taken over by Fox, and which had dumped virtually all of its other fringe programming including virtually all boating related shows. We were not NASCAR, but we were not swamp buggy racing either. In fact, we had shows on TNN that had bigger audiences than CART. When GM became the series sponsor, the second in command at the company - Bob Lutz, who is still there by the way, attended our Worlds to announce and endorse the partnership. And while you mentioned our brief exchange on the subject, you neglected to mention my explanation as to why GM's involvement was actually a good thing for Mercury in the long run: Because GM wanted to sell cars and trucks not marine engines. We communicated with Mercury Racing through the entire process but they simply operated according to their own business model and at the end of the day wanted nothing to do with a change in the status quo, regardless of the potential benefits to them. So they did what they did to help the boycotters along, and by the way, in violation of their own sponsorship contract.

As for Reggie, as you will recall, we had all the Fountain boats racing with us anyway and by the 2003 Milwaukee race he and I had buried the hatchet. We are on good speaking terms to this day.

As for the demise of the LLC, let me say this: We, the LLC members, pulled the plug. We did so after the boycott. Before the boycott, right after St. Pete, we entered into a written deal with several parties including Billy Mauf, that according to its clear and unambiguous terms set the sport's future course in terms of rules, engine builders, etc., and guaranteed all of the Super Cats and Lights would attend our Worlds. Unfortunately, all but one of the signing parties honored the terms of the agreement. That one person, Billy Mauf, joined with Teague, Abrams, Chastelet, Whittier, and a few others, in boycotting our Worlds. Mauf and his group's actions disgusted many people including several of their fellow racers who simply never came back again.

Even though Teague, Mauf, et al. took our rules and much of the LLC fleet went off on their own thinking they could do better, they failed, miserably. If they had not done that then we would probably still be around and the sport would most assuredly be better off than it is today.

I know, given your situation, that is not something you want to hear, and probably not something you have ever heard working where you work, but it is the truth. In short, I will never give those folks the cover they want by taking any responsibility for their actions. I/we/the LLC made mistakes but we did not cause the boycott. Period. The boycotters have to take full responsibility for what they did, and their ultimate failures as well. Oh, I forgot, they slithered off and left a few guys holding the bag.

[Mike A.]

Once again, small disagreement.

The teams and independant sponsors, who have left NASCAR and put it in it's worst shape in years, put a lot of the blame on the change to the new car and new engine They Had No Say In.

Those high dollar expenses they had built huge investments over the years in were, as you said, obsolete. Many teams went back to the trucks with their equipment, and now are leaving all together. Even last years truck champ has no sponsor. And you know what, the NASCAR dictators are saying it's because of the economy. But, the the results I've seen of the teams who are left (that I know) say their percentage of ROI for their advertising dollar is identical to last year in the trucks and way off on the cars. Why????

Exactly, and not coincidentally, the COT sucks and has led to a fall off in the ratings and fan base.

[GENERAL LEE]

Maybe in a boat?????

Do you mean bringing a boat to the event/Shootout weekend? I think I'll bring the 368 for the weekend, but my current props are SOOO far from where they need to be, to even consider running the shootout. I'll represent elsewhere though! :coolgleamA:

[T2x]

I'll be the bartender

It'll be an evening for the ages...as long as Mike and I aren't allowed to debate....

[Mike A.]

It'll be an evening for the ages...as long as Mike and I aren't allowed to debate....

Are you kidding? A debate would be the headline event!!!

[T2x]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

Absolutely!...... But...what would then happen to their driving team, their truck drivers and their race crews....... not to mention Haggin himself?

You are better off with a real independent sponsor that is not attached to any existing racing people, but rather approaches the sport as a true marketing and business opportunity. There is already too much racing hardware sporting the Geico image. This would parallel trying to switch Dupont from backing Jeff Gordon's team to sponsoring the "Dupont Cup" Series...... too much conflict of interest IMHO.

One of the points that Mike nailed perfectly is the concept of eliminating all known politicos and hangers on from the new operation. Currently you have multiple referees, safety coordinators, inspectors, marketing people, and "presidents/chairmen" all jockeying to protect their ever decreasing fiefdoms. Like Congress, they all need to get the H*ll out. They have had their chance and basically failed to one degree or another. I don't doubt they have worked hard and in many cases thanklessly, but free airfare and expenses to all races, a taste of martinet power, and the habit of racing and officiating simultaneously has rendered most of them unworthy of further leadership roles. This will certainly p*ss off a lot of their loyal followers, but it is what it is....and it ain't what is needed.

I have always looked at people like Dave P and Steve David as the kind of folks who can run something in a cooperative and professional manner with the ability to listen to all, but still make the tough unilateral decisions based on fundamentally sound and unselfish logic. For that matter, let Trulio handle the PR. He would be great at it, as long as he doesn't wax too eloquently on the plight of the Manatee....or some other California granola stuff...

T2x

[T2x]

Are you kidding? A debate would be the headline event!!!

Yeah , but we're getting along so well, let's not push our luck.......

I envision a nice quiet evening in St Pete, with Trulio buying the Lobsters and Champagne while I gently remind him that the "under" was the better bet. Dave P will start the evening with some Tequila concoctions, and then we can all go inside to Mike's 164 inch Plasma TV and watch Steve David muscle the Miss Madison-O Boy Oberto-White Castle-AIG-Disney hydro to the Gold Cup Championship( renamed The "Michael Jackson Memorial Gold Cup of Hope" in 2011), which by then will be the last remaining boat race in the US.

[Mike A.]

Yeah , but we're getting along so well, let's not push our luck.......

I envision a nice quiet evening in St Pete, with Trulio buying the Lobsters and Champagne while I gently remind him that the "under" was the better bet.
Dave P will start the evening with some Tequila concoctions, and then we can all go inside to Mike's 164 inch Plasma TV and watch Steve David muscle the Miss Madison-O Boy Oberto-White Castle-AIG-Disney hydro to the Gold Cup Championship, which by then will be the last remaining boat race in the US.

67 inch.

[ApachePete]

This is a wonderful thread.

I've learned a lot.

Thanks!

Much more fun than taking on folks who only want to say that everything is OK, regardless of the facts.

[DaveP]

What I'm trying to figure out, why were there 147 raceboats in St Pete in 2000?

What were the classes?
How many in each class?
How long had the rules been unchanged for each class?
What were the purses?
Who were the teams to beat?
etc.

I, (and probably others), are really tired of fighting/arguing about what went wrong.

What was right? In every strong era, what was right??????

I think the concept of a stock Mercury 500hp (then EFI, then 525 EFI) in a twin (F-2) or Single (F-1) class open boat was the key to success for the boat counts. To have almost 40 boats between F-1 & F-2 in St. Pete was amazing...in just 2 classes. All of the boats were open boats (no canopies) and more or less were stock production boats (in the begining). Then many became "potato chip" race boats. For Formula to have raced and won many races (historically viewed upon as a well made but heavier slower boat) that was quite a statement there.

The F-1 & F-2 was as basic as racing got and was extremely competitive and the tech inspectors did their best to keep the playing field fair.

Checkbook racing gets old real quick. What is more impressive? A field of 12 36-40ft Cats with twin 750's chasing each other on the race course or 2 boats that run 180mph????

The other key to success are race sites that WELCOME the race and come up with the money to put the races on. Cities like Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Key West and other like them would turn their towns upside down for a race. Over the last few years, alot of the local businesses want a race but don't want to put the $$$ up to bring the show to town.

If all race sites were like St. Clair, MI...........the job of a sanctioning body would almost be easy. (well........never easy but a heck of alot easier!)

[NNRT]

This is a wonderful thread.

I've learned a lot.

Thanks!

Much more fun than taking on folks who only want to say that everything is OK, regardless of the facts.

You got that right Peter - !

[Ratickle]

Do you mean bringing a boat to the event/Shootout weekend? I think I'll bring the 368 for the weekend, but my current props are SOOO far from where they need to be, to even consider running the shootout. I'll represent elsewhere though! :coolgleamA:

I meant a raceboat someday soon .

[Brownie]

I have reconsidered my position, and have decided that only path to success is to have an attorney run the whole goddam thing. After all, look what they are doing for congress..........

[Mike A.]

I have reconsidered my position, and have decided that only path to success is to have an attorney run the whole goddam thing. After all, look what they are doing for congress..........

Tried that once, but it did not work out.

[DaveP]

Plus other eras where there were successful periods?

You gotta start somewhere.

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

[salrcr42]

I am fairly new to this forum. although I have not written or comented much due to my ignorance compared to most of you, I feel compelled to write and thank all of you for your honesty and true personal reflections and opinions concerning the best for this sport. I have been watching, following and dreaming of offshore racing since the
mid 80's. I have seen teams try to make the sport "more profesional" and seen teams spend virtually millions of dollars of thier own money for the better of the sport. I will not go into my own reflections and opinions of the changes I started to notice by the end of the 80's and into the 90's. You all are very well aware of it I am sure. By following this thread from the beginning, I want to join ApachePete and the General and any others by thanking all of you who are laying it out there in this thread with your honest feelings. It has been most informative. This thread very well could be the biginning of helping create the Offshore Racing in knew back in the 80's (wishfull thinking I know, but its a start)

[FastDonzi]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

At least back then everyone ( Open class competitors) knew they where going to race agains another boat (cat or V) with two 500ci N/A motors and nobody complained about it. I think the racing back then at 100mph or less was more exciting than todays 120+ races. There was usually 4 or more boats battleing for the lead, now we can hardly get 4 boats in a class. and the good ol boy throttleman has been replaced by a rev limiter. soon, real soon the owner/driver will just wear a suit & Tie while driving the boat so when the race is over he can immidiatly jump out of his canopy go get his "World Champion" Trophy and look good doing it, then Haul across the state and get another "World Chamionship" Next weekend

[Knot 4 Me]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

HDNet was playing "Cocaine Cowboys" last night. Enlightens you on how unlimited the funds were in those days to throw at whatever hobby tickled your fancy.

[Ratickle]

But none of those guys were players at the 2000 Worlds with 147 boats there. They may have built the original model through unlimited funds out of their own pockets, but extremely successful eras ensued since. So there is no way to say that is the only reason for success in this sport.