Boats.com story on "Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?"

[GENERAL LEE]

I would also get rid of the two man teams. One person in the boat does it all.

I have ALWAYS thought that should be the absolute defining display of skill.

Two man race/poker run teams, with people that know nothing of how their counter party will react to ANY situation, is just a recipe for disaster. EVERYone thinks they're the "throttle-man", therefore they can control whatever mistakes the "driver" makes.

It's hardly different than putting on a cape and thinking you can jump out of your window & fly to safety.

[DAREDEVIL]

I have ALWAYS thought that should be the absolute defining display of skill.

Two man race/poker run teams, with people that know nothing of how their counter party will react to ANY situation, is just a recipe for disaster. EVERYone thinks they're the "throttle-man", therefore they can control whatever mistakes the "driver" makes.

It's hardly different than putting on a cape and thinking you can jump out of your window & fly to safety.

Actually ,i think if the team is "a TEAM " its not a problem ,,,,if i run my boat with my buddy Michael we can turn faster and run faster then i can by my self 100 %
We both trusst each other not just in the boat,,we been thru alot in the last 10+ years and are still real good friends "FRIENDS" thats the key.

He has my back i have his thats what its all about.

[THEJOKER]

I'll put up the 1st $ 100,000.00 for NEWCO....wait....too many zeros! $1.00 - ok that's more like it!

[Steve Miklos]

There is only one way for the Sport to work. The foundation of revenue has to come from related manufacturers. You need three or more propulsion (Mercury, Ilmor, ?????). At least 3-5 hull manufacturers who can sell what is racing to non racers. You also need an NHRA style accessories sponsor program to help the small racers and get little widget companies on board.

Until you have a TV product that is entertaining and sustainable the rest is just burning cash for a hobby.


The reality is that outboards are where the propulsion marketing battle is fought and the weapon of choice appears to be a fishing pole.
Steve

[Ratickle]

The reality is that outboards are where the propulsion marketing battle is fought and the weapon of choice appears to be a fishing pole.
Steve

That is a very intriguing comment.......


The center console races before fishing tournaments are catching on currently. Outboard (X-Cat) is making huge increases in overseas markets. I believe our Stock Outboard Cats here are the exact same design and rules?

[DaveP]

I have to say....I have been involved in the sport since 1980 and the current discussion between Mike A., T2x and Matt has to be the most civil, well thought out and introspective discussion on the sport in many many many years.

All of them are correct in their assessments and the most incredible worlds I ever attended was the 2000 Worlds in St. Pete. 147 raceboats, 20 in F-2, 18 or 19 in F-1.
Formula there supporting their 8 teams with tents and supplies all lined up together.

That was a pretty incredible year.

The biggest issues that face the sport are:
1) Money (it takes alot of money to produce a race or series of races)
2) Unification (1 body with a benevolent dictator)
3) The fact that every 6-12 months a handful of racers get disgruntled and decided that they "can build a better mousetrap" and splinter off (OPT, Us Offshore, WPPA, OSS, Offshore Pro Series, ORL, etc...)

[DaveP]

Dinner.......at Mike's house.

T2x

I'll be the bartender

[Ted]

Until you have a TV product that is entertaining and sustainable the rest is just burning cash for a hobby.



Steve

And the TV has to be driven and controlled by the sanctioning body, not the sponsor(s). And it has to be produced with the sole purpose of being engaging and entertaining. Only if it can pull ratings will it be a marketable product to sponsors.

[Mike A.]

And the TV has to be driven and controlled by the sanctioning body, not the sponsor(s). And it has to be produced with the sole purpose of being engaging and entertaining. Only if it can pull ratings will it be a marketable product to sponsors.

Ted,

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that the TV program cannot be a single sponsor infomercial, right? Obviously, motorsports programming has to be sponsor driven to be successful. No sanctioning group can succeed by telling sponsors to give up their money and then go away. Sponsors must be included in the programming development end of the business. There is no avoiding that, however, that is different from allowing a sponsor to have a say in the competition model. The sanctioning body has to develop an exciting racing product to get ratings no doubt, but the value added to sponsors comes from commercials, features, billboards, etc. bearing their names.

[TCEd]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

[Ted]

Ted,

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that the TV program cannot be a single sponsor infomercial, right? Obviously, motorsports programming has to be sponsor driven to be successful. No sanctioning group can succeed by telling sponsors to give up their money and then go away. Sponsors must be included in the programming development end of the business. There is no avoiding that, however, that is different from allowing a sponsor to have a say in the competition model. The sanctioning body has to develop an exciting racing product to get ratings no doubt, but the value added to sponsors comes from commercials, features, billboards, etc. bearing their names.

Right Mike, I'm not saying the sponsor should not have ads, mentions, whatever. But in the past few years several of the TV attempts were almost wholly sponsored by one sponsor that then exerted great pressure on the production and yes, made it an infomercial. My model would have a portion of the major sponsor's money devoted to the TV production, but no single TV sponsor, or even majority sponsor. A race cannot be announced properly if certain boat names cannot be mentioned, even when they are in the lead in their class. This in turn causes new people to be confused and old hands to be upset with the production and simply turn off the TV. Which defeats the whole purpose.

[Mike A.]

I'll be the bartender

We could all meet at Miklos' house during the Clearwater race weekend. Just sayin'...

[Steve Miklos]

There usually a party there anyway!

[Ted]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

Most certainly. But it is hard to say where the sport would be right now without the huge support that GEICO and more importantly John Haggin has given ALL the sanctioning bodies. If a group/individual came along with a large amount of cash with a good business plan and a desire to control the entire sport as opposed to a team it is certainly possible. But they should not be associated with any specific race team and should make all decisions based on the good of the organization, not necessarily the good of any team or sponsor.

[OldSchool]

Right Mike, I'm not saying the sponsor should not have ads, mentions, whatever. But in the past few years several of the TV attempts were almost wholly sponsored by one sponsor that then exerted great pressure on the production and yes, made it an infomercial. My model would have a portion of the major sponsor's money devoted to the TV production, but no single TV sponsor, or even majority sponsor. A race cannot be announced properly if certain boat names cannot be mentioned, even when they are in the lead in their class. This in turn causes new people to be confused and old hands to be upset with the production and simply turn off the TV. Which defeats the whole purpose.

Fountain TV......I watched it because it was the only boat racing on TV!!!


.....other that jet swamp buggy boats, drag boats, bass boats and jet ski's!!!! How can they do it????

[Ratickle]

I have to say....I have been involved in the sport since 1980 and the current discussion between Mike A., T2x and Matt has to be the most civil, well thought out and introspective discussion on the sport in many many many years.

All of them are correct in their assessments and the most incredible worlds I ever attended was the 2000 Worlds in St. Pete. 147 raceboats, 20 in F-2, 18 or 19 in F-1.
Formula there supporting their 8 teams with tents and supplies all lined up together.

That was a pretty incredible year.

The biggest issues that face the sport are:
1) Money (it takes alot of money to produce a race or series of races)
2) Unification (1 body with a benevolent dictator)
3) The fact that every 6-12 months a handful of racers get disgruntled and decided that they "can build a better mousetrap" and splinter off (OPT, Us Offshore, WPPA, OSS, Offshore Pro Series, ORL, etc...)

What I'm trying to figure out, why were there 147 raceboats in St Pete in 2000?

What were the classes?
How many in each class?
How long had the rules been unchanged for each class?
What were the purses?
Who were the teams to beat?
etc.

I, (and probably others), are really tired of fighting/arguing about what went wrong.

What was right? In every strong era, what was right?????? That's what I really want to know, and I would really like to hear from everyones perspective who was involved in any way. You guys were there, I was watching.

I think we all would like to know. No "what went wrong", what was right?????

And Dave's right, we're learning from you guys and your discourse, keep teaching.

[Mike A.]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

I do not know about GEICO, but I can assure you this: If Haggin had put his own money, or the GECIO money he secured, into a sanctioning organization rather than his team, boats, and support vehicles, he would not have had a fraction of the fun and would not be around today. That is an important point for the racers to understand.

Spending your own money as a sanctioning group owner so that others can enjoy themselves is only fun if there is a profitable exit strategy for the owner. Once it becomes clear that the exit strategy is hopeless no one in their right mind will continue to spend money just so others can have a place to race.

By analogy, once the deep pocket race team owner gets bored or is no longer having enough fun to justify the cost he quits. That has happened over and over again. It is great while it lasts, but it never lasts.

The big team promoter helps to keep the sport alive during its time, however, it does nothing for the long term health, let alone growth of the sport. For that you need a strong well capitalized sanctioning body. Otherwise, what you have is well, what you have.

[Matt Trulio]

Guys,

Intriguing stuff. But my initial point, "It is what it is and always will be what it is" stands, at least for me. Both Rich and Mike have seen the sport through its "peak" days. And even at its zenith, it was ... fringe. Either one of you care to disagree?

Now, that doesn't mean it can't find an audience, and we have cable television to thank for that. My god, I watched some nut job wrestle a huge python in a guano-filled cave the other day, and damn I was entertained. If you can package some kook rolling around in bat **** with a scary-big snake, you can package anything.

Just don't expect it to outdraw "American Idol" or "I Love New York" or "Flavor of Love."

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"

Having reread this thread, Mike, I have to say this: I think it's a mistake to point fingers at the "splinter group" for the LLC's demise. Granted, I think splinter groups are a mistake as they invariably become what they once despised. But if that many people were disenchanted ... like you said, people in business make mistakes. But as I'm sure you'll agree, a big part of business is managing personal relationships. If that many people went south on the LLC, maybe the LLC had a least some responsibility for their flight. Don't want to go tit for tat, but I think there's a degree of responsibility on the part of the LLC, in terms of creating the climate for that group to exist, that you're not owning.

On another note ...

At the time GM came on as a sponsor, I asked you during your Key West press conference how you thought that would fly with Mercury Racing. Seemed like an obvious question to me, but my colleagues in the press inexplicably lost their voices. You said, "How did I know YOU would ask that question?" And everyone in the room laughed.

It was a good moment.

But with Fountain and Mercury Racing gone as sponsors, for whatever reason (and likely we'll never agree on why and that's OK) the LLC was in deep trouble, and I'm not talking financially. (Those sponsorships, though decent for offshore racing, couldn't even come close to supporting a race-sanctioning business.) Perception and opinion were not working in the LLC's favor. Seems to me things went terminally south from there.

You always said I treated you fairly and respectfully. I appreciated that. Felt the same way. Just offering my take, from the outside. You were on the inside, and I respect that as well.

[GENERAL LEE]

Enough.

The fantastic small group of guys that have been nice enough to inform us of how it actually works, should be thanked by ANYONE that's read this thread. I can personally tell you guys that I've learned SO much from your time explaining the racing dynamic to us.

I can only hope that the idea itself improves, and I do honestly wish someone would get me in on supporting the cause myself. Whether it's monetary, or physical support, I'd love to do what I can to extend that "love" for offshore racing.

[Ratickle]

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"

Once again, small disagreement.

The teams and independant sponsors, who have left NASCAR and put it in it's worst shape in years, put a lot of the blame on the change to the new car and new engine They Had No Say In.

Those high dollar expenses they had built huge investments over the years in were, as you said, obsolete. Many teams went back to the trucks with their equipment, and now are leaving all together. Even last years truck champ has no sponsor. And you know what, the NASCAR dictators are saying it's because of the economy. But, the the results I've seen of the teams who are left (that I know) say their percentage of ROI for their advertising dollar is identical to last year in the trucks and way off on the cars. Why????